How could a battery charge faster?

[Carsinmyblood]

On a 32amp charger (Ford's charger at home, 240v) pulling just 28 amps on each leg, the wire gets warm. (perfectly normal)

At DC fast chargers the wire from the station to the car gets so hot that they're liquid cooled. 20% to 80% takes 45 mins to 1 hour at 'moderate' to 'fast'.

What kind of magic alchemy will allow batteries to do this faster, at least as stated by manufacturer's predictive PR (which is often just talk) without melting the insulation off the wires? Moving kw's is moving kw's not matter the appliance.

This site below is on point as they're raising money, unless it's only got a few AA's in the trunk?

....showing a 20 amp wire charging something.

They claim 8 to 9 minute charging time. Predicted of course.

https://www.invest.atlismotorvehicl...l1mga69kO0VkYo9EtaVqhlBplW9BsMXUaAlN6EALw_wcB

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[Tamadrummer88]

From what I’ve read, charging a battery that large from 10-80% in like say 10 minutes would basically make the battery explode. Has to do with chemistry. Although Toyota is working on solid state batteries which can charge a little faster than lithium ion, but the problem is getting them ready for mass production.
As for super fast charging for lithium ion, we are years away from that.

 

[mark360]

On a 32amp charger (Ford's charger at home, 240v) pulling just 28 amps on each leg, the wire gets warm. (perfectly normal)

At DC fast chargers the wire from the station to the car gets so hot that they're liquid cooled. 20% to 80% takes 45 mins to 1 hour at 'moderate' to 'fast'.

What kind of magic alchemy will allow batteries to do this faster, at least as stated by manufacturer's predictive PR (which is often just talk) without melting the insulation off the wires? Moving kw's is moving kw's not matter the appliance.

This site below is on point as they're raising money, unless it's only got a few AA's in the trunk?

....showing a 20 amp wire charging something.

They claim 8 to 9 minute charging time. Predicted of course.

https://www.invest.atlismotorvehicl...l1mga69kO0VkYo9EtaVqhlBplW9BsMXUaAlN6EALw_wcB

I believe we are seeing the max charge rate - 350KW/hr at Electrify America. Vehicles that take advantage of that speed can only do so for a fraction of the charging curve, there is a thermal limit to every component that makes up the battery. Those thermal limits are being reached thus charging is tapered down even though a lot of capacity is left to charge.

There is also the issue of cell balancing which normally occurs at 90+% state of charge. This is a very slow process and the best way to imagine it is you always fill a cup fast until it reaches the very top to avoid spilling it. The only way around this is to build batteries that have excess capacity that is never used - but for range verification this cell balancing must be done in order for the BMS to accurately adjust the true battery range estimation & charge level.

Otherwise, your car will suddenly quit operating when it thinks there is 20% left because the BMS hasn't had the chance to "calibrate" if pulled off the charger before completion.

Technology and algorithms have improved to where BMS and charging speed is down to a science in order to protect the consumer, battery and longevity of the vehicles. We are seeing the peak of Lithium Ion Nickel batteries and as such you have scientists and chemists working on solid state batteries that are much more efficient at converting stored energy without much heat.

 

[Maquis]

Battery aside, here is the electrical circuit aspect:

It's all in the wire size. The temperature rise of the wire at a given current flow is roughly proportional to its cross sectional area. The wire has to be sized so the the intended current flow results in a temperature rise that does not compromise the insulation.

And your statement "KWs is KWs" is not exactly true. Power is volts x amperes. So you can double the KW by doubling the voltage and keeping the current flow the same. Remember, it's the current that heats the wires, not the KW. That's what Porsche is doing with the Taycan - it has an 800 volt battery instead of the usual 400. So to charge your Mach-E at 100KW, it requires 250 amperes of current flow (250 x 400 = 100,000). You could theoretically send the same 250 amperes at 800V to the Taycan and it will be charging at 200KW - using the same wire size and the same resulting temperature rise.

 

[TheVirtualTim]

I noticed it says "charging station & handle prototype created" on that page.

Electricity is transmitted from the power station to the neighborhoods at very high voltage ... and then stepped down. At higher voltage you can use lower amperage and use thinner wires to deliver the same wattage as a lower voltage & higher amperage method. (E.g. a toaster in Europe can make toast with thinner wire gauge in the cord than a toaster in North America).

Home charging at level 2 is using 240v pretty much no matter where you are in the world. You wouldn't likely be able to get access to higher voltage in a neighborhood. With the voltage down to 240v you can't charge in just a few minutes using the same wire gauge and plug type that are used today. These fast charge times would have to based on their own flavor of DC Fast Charging.

To pull off their claim they would need a proprietary charger and likely also a propriety plug (e.g. like Tesla and their SuperCharger network). It would likely operate at a very high voltage.

 

[Carsinmyblood]

To pull off their claim they would need a proprietary charger and likely also a propriety plug (e.g. like Tesla and their SuperCharger network). It would likely operate at a very high voltage.

Which means in a controlled setting, it's possible. Out in the real world, it would require an entirely new approach to delivering power than we have now.

I can imagine battery technology that will "absorb" a charge faster than can be safely or economically delivered. It's not every 7/11 that has heavy-duty power coming off the pole.

It certainly isn't available in people's homes.

So.... when do we acknowledge that we've reached the best that's realistically possible and affordable?

 

[ab13]

Most major car companies are working with battery tech companies for solid state batteries. Quantumscape is one VW, Ford, and BMW are working with. Supposedly Toyota was going to show one during the Olympics, but considering the lack of attendance and organization, that is unsure.

https://www.quantumscape.com/

 

[Carsinmyblood]

I think the next step in long-range battery tech will run head-first into the ability to charge them quickly enough to take advantage. You can push only so many miles through a copper wire before it begins to smolder. Let's be clear, the car needs a given amount of power no matter the battery's make-up. Fast, slow, ceramic, unobtainium... it's all just Oooomph going through your house and eventually into a motor.

Of course the answer is 60 amp charging or dual 40 amp charging, but for most drivers it's totally out of range physically and unnecessary. We'll find ourselves dimming the lights and avoiding running the oven while shoving the final 100 miles into the battery that has it's own A/C unit cooking away in the garage. By the way, there are two cars now and you can fry bacon on the cords.

"At Ford, we've developed a new 250kWh battery that needs to charge once every 600 miles, but it takes 5 days to charge so your house doesn't burn down ....or 3.5 hours at our new 2 connection superchargers."

At some point we'll find that 350, 400 miles is enough, manageable and affordable.

 

[JoeDimwit]

I think the next step in long-range battery tech will run head-first into the ability to charge them quickly enough to take advantage. You can push only so many miles through a copper wire before it begins to smolder. Let's be clear, the car needs a given amount of power no matter the battery's make-up. Fast, slow, ceramic, unobtainium... it's all just Oooomph going through your house and eventually into a motor.

Of course the answer is 60 amp charging or dual 40 amp charging, but for most drivers it's totally out of range physically and unnecessary. We'll find ourselves dimming the lights and avoiding running the oven while shoving the final 100 miles into the battery that has it's own A/C unit cooking away in the garage. By the way, there are two cars now and you can fry bacon on the cords.

"At Ford, we've developed a new 250kWh battery that needs to charge once every 600 miles, but it takes 5 days to charge so your house doesn't burn down ....or 3.5 hours at our new 2 connection superchargers."

At some point we'll find that 350, 400 miles is enough, manageable and affordable.

You’re really close to correct, but you’re missing it. You can only send an amount of current down a copper wire without overheating the wire and causing issues. Power is different. Power is a combin of current and voltage. If you want to send double the power (kW in this case) through a wire, you can double the current (which will increase the risk of wire overheating) or double the voltage (which makes it more dangerous if someone comes into contact with uninsulated wire. You can also use a combination of higher voltage and higher current but less than double as long as the voltage multiplied by the current (power) ends up at double the original. If someone were to decide that higher current was the way they wanted to increase power delivery, then using a larger wire allows higher current with less heat.

 

[RonTCat]

You’re really close to correct, but you’re missing it. You can only send an amount of current down a copper wire without overheating the wire and causing issues. Power is different. Power is a combin of current and voltage. If you want to send double the power (kW in this case) through a wire, you can double the current (which will increase the risk of wire overheating) or double the voltage (which makes it more dangerous if someone comes into contact with uninsulated wire. You can also use a combination of higher voltage and higher current but less than double as long as the voltage multiplied by the current (power) ends up at double the original. If someone were to decide that higher current was the way they wanted to increase power delivery, then using a larger wire allows higher current with less heat.

In general, wire gauging is sized for current, and wire insulation for voltage.

Some electrical power lines are one million volts, so they can deliver 1000kW with only one amp. They can be very small gauge, but you can imagine the insulation (air gap) needed for these lines.

 

[ab13]

https://www.quantumscape.com/

The two videos on the Quantumscape main page explain the issues with existing batteries. Mainly dendrite formation that damages the layers causing short circuit.

 

[theo1000]

In general, wire gauging is sized for current, and wire insulation for voltage.

Some electrical power lines are one million volts, so they can deliver 1000kW with only one amp. They can be very small gauge, but you can imagine the insulation (air gap) needed for these lines.

Just to mention here, deep inside NEC (nat elec code) there is ongoing commentary to raise the voltage line from 1000v to 2000v. It was already raised from 600v to 1000v per recent changes mostly for the Solar and Auto folks.

I think around 2025 or so 2000v will be posted. and that should help with the thickness of wires. Along with that there is discussion on 2 MW charging, mostly for commercial but some fraction of that should trickle into personal use. 1 MW or so from some commentary.

Keep in mind Ford is a founding member for these discussions and is probably leading all the nitty gritty.

 

[Chudsaviet]

Just to mention here, deep inside NEC (nat elec code) there is ongoing commentary to raise the Low voltage line from 1000v to 2000v. It was already raised from 600v to 1000v per recent changes mostly for the Solar and Auto folks.

I think around 2025 or so 2000v will be posted. and that should help with the thickness of wires. Along with that there is discussion on 2 MW charging, mostly for commercial but some fraction of that should trickle into personal use. 1 MW or so from some commentary.

Keep in mind Ford is a founding member for these discussions and is probably leading all the nitty gritty.

When I hear about 1 MW charging I recall that first nuclear power plant had 5 MW of power.
And current reactors have like 1000 MW of power.
So 1-2 MW is a huge amount of power for the power grid.

 

[CHeil402]

In general, wire gauging is sized for current, and wire insulation for voltage.

Some electrical power lines are one million volts, so they can deliver 1000kW with only one amp. They can be very small gauge, but you can imagine the insulation (air gap) needed for these lines.

Completely correct. Heat rise in a wire increases by the square of the current, hence the high voltage transmission lines. Here's a great practical example showing thin wire powering a hair dryer at high voltage, but immediately burning up at low voltage...

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