Charging FAIL & GREAT Surprise When We Compare The Model Y & Mach-E On The World’s Toughest EV Test!

[Woeo]

Well, no, that's going a bit overboard.

Reasonable expectations, yes. Unreasonable ones, no.

Yes! Meet our reasonable expectations. That has been Ford’s promise for this car.

What is unreasonable about expecting charge rates above 40 kW @35% capacity?

What is reasonable about 11kW rate @80%?

Are we seeing this on Tesla, eTron, Taycan, Kona? Why do you think Kyle said if Ford can’t do better that it would be “BAD”. Why is it “news” that Tommy had his experience?

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[mr_raider]

Maybe. But there's competitive forces at work as well. Most other BEVs don't have a buffer that large. That means Ford is adding cost for more battery without gaining the selling-point of more range for it. If that proves to be truly unnecessary, it makes little sense to for them to waste that much of the battery. Logically, they would do what Tesla did -- add range later via OTA when it's determined if/when they can do so.

But that just depends on what Ford determines with data collection and further testing. If they determine that drivers are generating more damaging heat than they expected, then they'll probably keep the buffer where it is. But if the data collection shows the batteries are doing fine and their cautious approach (vs what makers of other BEVs have been doing) proved to be unnecessary, it makes sense they would unlock a portion of that very conservative reserve.

I think the best way to sum it up is that no one really knows, Ford included (yet).

Gm does the same thing. Volt has a 19kwh battery. 15 is user accessible.

I'm sure tesla does it too. We just don't know how much is held in reserve.

 

[timbop]

Why should they give you more range and risk burning out the battery when you have had the car and paid for it. That logic makes no sense. It would only be for new customers and sold as an improvement and probably in addition to a battery improvement too. Once they have delivered the car there is no reason to increase the range. That is delusional to expect to happen.

clearly you haven't been paying attention to tesla

 

[dbsb3233]

Yes! Meet our reasonable expectations. That has been Ford’s promise for this car.

What is unreasonable about expecting charge rates above 40 kW @35% capacity?

What is reasonable about 11kW rate @80%?

Are we seeing this on Tesla, eTron, Taycan, Kona? Why do you think Kyle said if Ford can’t do better that it would be “BAD”. Why is it “news” that Tommy had his experience?

Of course. I have no doubt that we'll be getting more than 40 kW DCFC at 35% in most cases. They've advertised what works out to be an average of 82 kW from 10-80%, so that's my ballpark expectation.

As for above 80%, they never told us anything about that so who knows. But yes, I eventually expect that will be up somewhere in the 25-50 kW ballpark that other big battery BEVs typically get.

Again, this is a preproduction unit, and we're early adopters. Too soon to pass judgment on what this thing will do in July or December. Or even the day we get ours. I think it's reasonable to think the real production units will meet their targets.

 

[SteveUk]

clearly you haven't been paying attention to tesla

Which means what exactly?

 

[timbop]

Which means what exactly?

Every model of Tesla has received an OTA that increased the range, multiple times. Your assertion is therefore false that it can't or won't be done by anyone. How Tesla did it is unknown; whether it was simply improving algorithms or decreasing the buffer is immaterial to the argument.

 

[ARK]

Thanks, that's informative. So a worst case 30% drop is quite significant, won't you say? I was guessing 10%.
Compared to @TFLtommy 's statement " much like other EV's on the market, the battery degradation is very minimal. ". No one will call a 30% degradation in 100k miles "very minimal". That's the norm. It won't be unlike other electric cars. That's fundamental stuff for rechargeable batteries; can't get around it. I think Model 3 has something similar.

I don't know what's the exact SR range. If it is 208 miles, then, it will be a 140-mile car after 8 years. the ER will be a 210 mile BEV. It is possible the EPA range is conservative. Thats how most OEMs seem to be -putting the EPA estimate, on th conservative side. Except Tesla, according to many articles on this.

Ford’s warranty is similar to Tesla’s in this respect, see here. Tesla has an 8 year battery warranty for all of their vehicles, but the mileage varies. At the top end, it is 150,000 for the S and X, then 120,000 for the long range and performance 3 and Y, and lastly 100,000 for the standard range and standard range plus 3 and Y. That last group are the Tesla vehicles that are closest to the MME in range.

I too do have some concern about the battery warranty, but Ford is matching the market leader in this respect.

Specifically, my concern is what about early battery degradation that is too aggressive that doesn’t still breach the warranty’s parameters. For example, what if there is something wrong with one of the five or six cell packs that I understand makes up the battery (not sure if I am using the right terminology here) so you get 90% capacity 3 months after purchase, or 80% in year 2 due to a fault. Would Ford still replace the battery pack or rather a faulty cell?

Probably unlikely to be a concern since you don’t hear about this type of failure from other EV owners, but would still have felt better if they had a schedule of minimum battery capacity for each year.

 

[timbop]

Ford’s warranty is similar to Tesla’s in this respect, see here. Tesla has an 8 year battery warranty for all of their vehicles, but the mileage varies. At the top end, it is 150,000 for the S and X, then 120,000 for the long range and performance 3 and Y, and lastly 100,000 for the standard range and standard range plus 3 and Y. That last group are the Tesla vehicles that are closest to the MME in range.

I too do have some concern about the battery warranty, but Ford is matching the market leader in this respect.

Specifically, my concern is what about early battery degradation that is too aggressive that doesn’t still breach the warranty’s parameters. For example, what if there is something wrong with one of the five or six cell packs that I understand makes up the battery (not sure if I am using the right terminology here) so you get 90% capacity 3 months after purchase, or 80% in year 2 due to a fault. Would Ford still replace the battery pack or rather a faulty cell?

Probably unlikely to be a concern since you don’t hear about this type of failure from other EV owners, but would still have felt better if they had a schedule of minimum battery capacity for each year.

There's a 3 year bumper-to-bumper warranty to cover a dead module

 

[SteveUk]

Every model of Tesla has received an OTA that increased the range, multiple times. Your assertion is therefore false that it can't or won't be done by anyone. How Tesla did it is unknown; whether it was simply improving algorithms or decreasing the buffer is immaterial to the argument.

Fair enough but I think Tesla is a risk taker and cutting edge whereas Ford is convervative and risk averse

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Every model of Tesla has received an OTA that increased the range, multiple times. Your assertion is therefore false that it can't or won't be done by anyone. How Tesla did it is unknown; whether it was simply improving algorithms or decreasing the buffer is immaterial to the argument.

I'd bet on all of the above.

 

[timbop]

Fair enough but I think Tesla is a risk taker and cutting edge whereas Ford is convervative and risk averse

I actually doubt they'll open much of the buffer (if any), but they certainly will be tweaking algorithms to improve efficiency.

 

[generaltso]

Would Ford still replace the battery pack or rather a faulty cell?

If something is faulty, yes the battery warranty will cover it. What is not covered is normal degradation that occurs as a result of time and charge cycles. At least Ford spells out a percentage that could be considered normal. My Outlander’s battery warranty is 10 years, but excludes degradation and doesn’t list any percentage for North America.

 

[RonTCat]

Which means what exactly?

I guess it means Tesla does things that aren't logical. You do that when you are in survival mode.

 

[malba2366]

I guess it means Tesla does things that aren't logical. You do that when you are in survival mode.

Tesla is not in survival mode anymore. There is a big cultural difference between Tesla and the OEM automakers...Tesla is much willing to push things to the extreme (both battery tech, and the autonomous driving stuff) than the established automakers are.

 

[Shayne]

Of course. I have no doubt that we'll be getting more than 40 kW DCFC at 35% in most cases. They've advertised what works out to be an average of 82 kW from 10-80%, so that's my ballpark expectation.

As for above 80%, they never told us anything about that so who knows. But yes, I eventually expect that will be up somewhere in the 25-50 kW ballpark that other big battery BEVs typically get.

Again, this is a preproduction unit, and we're early adopters. Too soon to pass judgment on what this thing will do in July or December. Or even the day we get ours. I think it's reasonable to think the real production units will meet their targets.

Yes they told us charging speed up to 80% (of 88 KWh) and have been up front about the 11% buffer grab. If they limit the dcfc to 80%, with its efficiency, it will be APOS and that will get out. I do not see that happening but have no facts either. I do not think you release a mustang with a major hardware problem and truly hope also to see the 80% road block disappear; to make this offering competitive to other EV's. A 100 KWh pack can change the dynamic (bit better in the e-tron class is possible as it is more efficient than the E-Tron). Guess it is the facts seen in reviews and the silence that gets us going. Two things only and possibly fixable to make it gr8? Charging with speed up to 90%, with the size of the buffer, will be a requirement for success (hope it is soon after launch). I for one do not want an EV mustang to be known as APOS. Possibly a management decision and it is good to go? Or is that OKTB. Have faith she is going to be good.

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