😭😭😭 POST BATTERY CONTACTOR RECALL -- FIRST JUNCTION BOX FAILURE 😭😭😭😭

[scoopman]

Hopefully you never have to deal with this issue again!

Any chance you got more information from the dealer or Ford at this point about what happened?

I think the biggest one is, was the dealership able to start your car after your dropped it off?

If they were able to start and drive it, anyone from Ford engineering say how much driving you can do or on/off cycles an owner can reasonably expect after getting the Service Vehicle Soon message before it turns into Stop Safely Now?

No one will tell me much of anything.

My car at least had 12V working properly because I had securealert on and know when they've been working on it. They also drove it a little bit so I don't think the contactor completely failed.

Sponsored

 

[scoopman]

No one will tell me much of anything.

My car at least had 12V working properly because I had securealert on and know when they've been working on it. They also drove it a little bit so I don't think the contactor completely failed.

Actually last time it drove was on Friday for .1mi. I suspect they had to use other means to get it to the lift yesterday when the doors and hood were opened.

 

[Mathington]

Sorry to hear about this, but I’m curious about your experience because I also have a SR AWD, and just generally for this issue.

Were you driving with a lead foot before it happened (not that there is anything wrong with that - it is a Mustang) and/or DCFCing often?

It’s worth pointing out that SR Mach-Es DCFC is rated at up to 115kW charging speed, compared to 150kW on the ER variants (including GTs).

Ford’s tech specs also say the SR AWD and SR RWD have peak power of 198 kW (which surprises me because I would think AWD should have a bit more and the fact that SR RWD hasn’t seen any failures seems to suggest this - maybe the power in the SR AWD is simply more likely to be called upon throughout the power curve and that’s the difference).

By comparison, the GTs have peak power of 358kW, the ER AWD trims 258kW, and the ER RWD trims 216kW.

My point being, it would be much easier to get 198kW flowing through a GT and much harder to do that with an SR where the SR will peak at 198kW whereas that’s only about 55% of the power the GT is capable of putting down.

So maybe something like half throttle on a GT is sending as much power through the HVBJB as full throttle on an SR if I am understanding this correct (and all the more shocking that they didn’t use a more robust part for the GT trims to begin with).

I am a little sad that my Premium SR AWD doesn't go up to 150kW charging. When I was looking on the website, it said that the Select is limited to 115 but that the Premium is 150kW charging. At the time I didn't think it was a limitation of the power pack and more the power electronics that was in the Select vs Premium.

That being said, I have seen my Premium SR AWD hit 119kW peak during charging a few weeks back. I haven't taken many road trips so the DCFC speed hasn't been an issue but that is changing this summer. I will see how much of a difference it makes I guess.

Has anyone with a Premium SR AWD seen above 120kW when DCFC?

 

[BostonPete]

I am a little sad that my Premium SR AWD doesn't go up to 150kW charging. When I was looking on the website, it said that the Select is limited to 115 but that the Premium is 150kW charging. At the time I didn't think it was a limitation of the power pack and more the power electronics that was in the Select vs Premium.

That being said, I have seen my Premium SR AWD hit 119kW peak during charging a few weeks back. I haven't taken many road trips so the DCFC speed hasn't been an issue but that is changing this summer. I will see how much of a difference it makes I guess.

Has anyone with a Premium SR AWD seen above 120kW when DCFC?

Edit - Sorry I missed the Premium SR Part of this... Yes that it limited to a lower charging rate, I had a Select SR and it wouldn't barely go over 100kwh most of the time...

This is from Car Scanner, it seems to imply that I was over 150Kwh for a bit, note how low battery I was when it happened and it only happened for a few.

Note - I have a few others that even at between 20 & 30% I see over 120kwh for a bit. Premium ER / AWD. Mine does not have the Charging Curve update.

 

[Anthropod]

Actually last time it drove was on Friday for .1mi. I suspect they had to use other means to get it to the lift yesterday when the doors and hood were opened.

I am shocked at how much information you can tell about your car when they have it. I’ve been lucky and have had good service from most of the dealerships with my cars over the years. But info like that would have helped me with a certain MB dealership that had a hard time telling the truth.

 

[AKgrampy]

Ford prolonging and dragging out pushing out the software update is insane too. How the hell is this update not already pushed out to all Mach E's yesterday? Having to drive to a dealer to manually apply an update? Seriously, what the hell is the hangup with doing these types of things immediately OTA. I understand there being a little bit of a lag initially to get a bunch of cars tested, but once it has been proven to be safe, not sure why the official push has such a huge delay, especially for something as critical as this is to the safety of the cars and the protection of the components in the car. The idea of having to go to a dealership to expedite the update is insane. It is almost like someone at Ford is purposely trying to make this process as painful as fucking possible.

I understand your frustration and if the software fixed the problem I may be just as frustrated. From my perspective; though, I am in no hurry. First even though a safety recall there were no accidents although there were some hairy situations. Second the software only reduces the impact of the failure in that you can drive but you will have to go for repairs. Third this problem only impacts 0.5% so only a small chance of an issue. Finally there has only been one incident reported on the forum since the software came out and it was a repeat for that vehicle (recognize the forum is a small sub set and there may be several failures.) Bottom-line is I just drive it like I have been and do not worry. I will say that if I planned a long distance trip I might go and get the update. I actually have OTA’s blocked for now but as there seems to be no issues with the update I will unblock it.

 

[Gene Bank]

Ford prolonging and dragging out pushing out the software update is insane too. How the hell is this update not already pushed out to all Mach E's yesterday? Having to drive to a dealer to manually apply an update? Seriously, what the hell is the hangup with doing these types of things immediately OTA. I understand there being a little bit of a lag initially to get a bunch of cars tested, but once it has been proven to be safe, not sure why the official push has such a huge delay, especially for something as critical as this is to the safety of the cars and the protection of the components in the car. The idea of having to go to a dealership to expedite the update is insane. It is almost like someone at Ford is purposely trying to make this process as painful as fucking possible.

The other thing that comes to mind is that I assume dealership's are backed up with maintenance issues in general. It takes time to do an update. OTA would free up a massive amount of hours so it would be in Ford's best interest to make this happen ASAP

 

[sukhoi_584th]

Didn't Tesla have similar issues early on? Does anyone know if Hyundai and Kia are having any early EV related issues? It will be interesting to see what issues crop up on the ne Caddy.

@Schmetsky yes they did. A co-worker was a fairly early engineer at Tesla and he started laughing when I told him about this contactor problem. Apparently Tesla's main issue was using off-brand suppliers who had poor quality control. Part variation does seem to be Ford's problem as well, though they are using a first tier supplier (TE Connectivity).

 

[Xweb]

I just got my car returned after getting the recall patch. Any idea how I can verify it was properly updated?

 

[Gullwingdmc]

I am a little sad that my Premium SR AWD doesn't go up to 150kW charging. When I was looking on the website, it said that the Select is limited to 115 but that the Premium is 150kW charging. At the time I didn't think it was a limitation of the power pack and more the power electronics that was in the Select vs Premium.

Yeah that part does suck. I was a little disappointed when that was clarified for me by someone who knows more about the battery packs.
The specs from Ford say “Up to 150kW” for the premium trim, the “Up to” being the key part I missed.

 

[Mathington]

Yeah that part does suck. I was a little disappointed when that was clarified for me by someone who knows more about the battery packs.
The specs from Ford say “Up to 150kW” for the premium trim, the “Up to” being the key part I missed.

I'm doing a ~2000km (1,250mi) road trip at the end of this month so it will be a good test to see how well the charging holds up. If I can consistently hit 119kW charging for the first few minutes after plugging in, I would be happy with that.

I have an appointment this weekend to have 22S41 installed for the HVBJB contactor issue, so hopefully that keeps me safe from any potential catastrophic failure due to all the DCFC in hot weather.

 

[MachTee]

Didn't Tesla have similar issues early on? Does anyone know if Hyundai and Kia are having any early EV related issues? It will be interesting to see what issues crop up on the ne Caddy.

@Schmetsky yes they did. A co-worker was a fairly early engineer at Tesla and he started laughing when I told him about this contactor problem. Apparently Tesla's main issue was using off-brand suppliers who had poor quality control. Part variation does seem to be Ford's problem as well, though they are using a first tier supplier (TE Connectivity).

Interesting.

I ordered a Tesla 3 in 6/2018. I was matched up to a car 3 months later. It was delay after delay due to an error message on the car. They wouldn't tell me what it was over email. Finally I was able to reach someone on the phone and I was told it was a contactor. If I'm not mistaken, it requires dropping the pack to replace. I told them I didn't want that car and requested another car to be built. The car that had the faulty contactor was in the 60k range VIN. The car that I took delivery in 11/2018 had a 110k VIN.

You know, back then, Tesla actually had customer service in mind. For the delay, they gave me a $200 certificate to buy accessories. I was definitely rooting for them back then. The more successful they became, the more arrogant they've gotten to the point I totally hated that company.

 

[DadzBoyz]

I've seen a couple of posts on Ford's potential cost to properly fix this "unforced error", as I've read it described.
One Forum member estimated the cost to replace the defective part at:
$2,000/car X 75,000 cars = $150,000,000

I think cost per car is closer to $1,000ish...
$1,000/car X 75,000 = $75,000,000

I'll explain my numbers:

Retail Numbers:
5.5 - Stated hours for repair
$175/hour - Billable rate for tech
$962.50 - Labor cost
$897.33 - HVBJB part (+ or - based on Ford dealership site, see attached)
$1,859.83 - Total, Parts and Labor

Insurance doesn't pay your doctor full price. Ford doesn't pay the dealer shop retail rates. The following is a heaping helping of presumption but, I think, reasonable.

Ford Reduced Numbers:
4 - Negotiated hours (Forum member's class - 2-3 hours to remove/replace battery)
$150/hour - Reduced billable rate for tech
$600 - Labor Cost
$708.67 - HVBJB part cost at 10% margin dealers marked down price (see attached)
$1,308.67 - Total per car repair cost

These numbers do not account for:

• The HVBJB core. Ford shows a $125 core charge for this part, so that could also mean a further reduction in costs.
• It also doesn't account for Ford trying to lay some of the costs on the supplier (right, wrong, or otherwise)

Aaaand, we're not done...
Ford's 2021 per car budget for warranty/recall repair costs was $1,041 (see article excerpt below). That's the highest total of the car manufacturers, by A LOT. $1,041 is budgeted per car for total warranty/recall costs, so we can't us up all of that in our calculations, but we can certainly use some. Let's make the math easy and say we use $308.67 of that $1,041 per car for this big fat recall. That still leaves $732.33/car for other warranty/recall costs. The next highest auto manufacturer budgets less than that (GM at $713).

$1,308.67 - HVBJB Repair cost
- 308.67 - Allocation from existing per car warranty/recall budget
$1,000.00 - Total additional cost per car replace the HVBJB

$1,000 X 75,000 = $75,000,000

And the number is probably lower than that. Some solid evidence is coming in that the issue has less impact on RWD cars.
So, it's still not a small amount, but $75m is certainly more manageable by Ford.

"So, why not just pay it, bring the cars in, and be done with it?"

I don't think Ford is in total denial and trying to screw everyone.
Yes. They will try to minimize the cost in the long run. They have to balance happy customers with happy shareholders.
No... I present to you:

1. Chip shortage
2. Supply chain
3. The Great Resignation

They need parts to build 5-6k cars a month.
We're talking about parts for an additional 75,000 existing cars.
They just came out with and started using the new part 6 weeks ago.
McDonald's can't keep enough people in staff. HV Technicians are certainly in high demand.
They don't have parts or technicians to say "We screwed up. Everybody, please bring your car in so we can replace 75,000 HVBJBs."
They have to manage this issue systematically. That doesn't make it right. It sucks.
This also doesn't mean that I'm apologizing for Ford (They REALLY SCREWED THIS DESIGN UP).
I'm just sharing the reality that I see.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
This article excerpt may give some perspective on costs and budgeting:

Ford's 'self-inflicted' recalls, warranty costs put automaker at competitive disadvantage
USA Today/Detroit Free Press, June 26
...
Every year, automakers set aside a dollar amount for every car sold to budget for anticipated warranty repair costs, which include recalls. According to Warranty Week data, Ford towered over its competitors in per vehicle budgeting in 2021:

Ford was $1,041 — up from $940 in 2020
General Motors was $713, up from $498 in 2020
Hyundai was $651, down from $1,171 in 2020
Stellantis NV was $630, up from $576 in 2020.

Meanwhile, Toyota fell from $423 to $401 in its fiscal year that ended March 31, 2022, and Honda plummeted by more than half from $782 to $347 during the same period, reported June 23. The other companies have a fiscal year that ends Dec. 31.
...

 

[scoopman]

Part is in the pack, dealer is just bleeding the coolant system and claims they need until tomorrow to do so. I'm skeptical this takes this long but I don't want to push them.

Dealer didn't take a photo of the B new part but said it "looked the same" as the older one...

The good thing is that it appears the pack is closed up without incident and put back in the car -- and hopefully no coolant leaks. My car wasn't dropped off the lift or my pack enclosure cracked or .....

 

[Neil4Real]

I've seen a couple of posts on Ford's potential cost to properly fix this "unforced error", as I've read it described.
One Forum member estimated the cost to replace the defective part at:
$2,000/car X 75,000 cars = $150,000,000

I think cost per car is closer to $1,000ish...
$1,000/car X 75,000 = $75,000,000

I'll explain my numbers:

Retail Numbers:
5.5 - Stated hours for repair
$175/hour - Billable rate for tech
$962.50 - Labor cost
$897.33 - HVBJB part (+ or - based on Ford dealership site, see attached)
$1,859.83 - Total, Parts and Labor

Insurance doesn't pay your doctor full price. Ford doesn't pay the dealer shop retail rates. The following is a heaping helping of presumption but, I think, reasonable.

Ford Reduced Numbers:
4 - Negotiated hours (Forum member's class - 2-3 hours to remove/replace battery)
$150/hour - Reduced billable rate for tech
$600 - Labor Cost
$708.67 - HVBJB part cost at 10% margin dealers marked down price (see attached)
$1,308.67 - Total per car repair cost

These numbers do not account for:

• The HVBJB core. Ford shows a $125 core charge for this part, so that could also mean a further reduction in costs.
• It also doesn't account for Ford trying to lay some of the costs on the supplier (right, wrong, or otherwise)

Aaaand, we're not done...
Ford's 2021 per car budget for warranty/recall repair costs was $1,041 (see article excerpt below). That's the highest total of the car manufacturers, by A LOT. $1,041 is budgeted per car for total warranty/recall costs, so we can't us up all of that in our calculations, but we can certainly use some. Let's make the math easy and say we use $308.67 of that $1,041 per car for this big fat recall. That still leaves $732.33/car for other warranty/recall costs. The next highest auto manufacturer budgets less than that (GM at $713).

$1,308.67 - HVBJB Repair cost
- 308.67 - Allocation from existing per car warranty/recall budget
$1,000.00 - Total additional cost per car replace the HVBJB

$1,000 X 75,000 = $75,000,000

And the number is probably lower than that. Some solid evidence is coming in that the issue has less impact on RWD cars.
So, it's still not a small amount, but $75m is certainly more manageable by Ford.

"So, why not just pay it, bring the cars in, and be done with it?"

I don't think Ford is in total denial and trying to screw everyone.
Yes. They will try to minimize the cost in the long run. They have to balance happy customers with happy shareholders.
No... I present to you:

1. Chip shortage
2. Supply chain
3. The Great Resignation

They need parts to build 5-6k cars a month.
We're talking about parts for an additional 75,000 existing cars.
They just came out with and started using the new part 6 weeks ago.
McDonald's can't keep enough people in staff. HV Technicians are certainly in high demand.
They don't have parts or technicians to say "We screwed up. Everybody, please bring your car in so we can replace 75,000 HVBJBs."
They have to manage this issue systematically. That doesn't make it right. It sucks.
This also doesn't mean that I'm apologizing for Ford (They REALLY SCREWED THIS DESIGN UP).
I'm just sharing the reality that I see.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
This article excerpt may give some perspective on costs and budgeting:

Ford's 'self-inflicted' recalls, warranty costs put automaker at competitive disadvantage
USA Today/Detroit Free Press, June 26
...
Every year, automakers set aside a dollar amount for every car sold to budget for anticipated warranty repair costs, which include recalls. According to Warranty Week data, Ford towered over its competitors in per vehicle budgeting in 2021:

Ford was $1,041 — up from $940 in 2020
General Motors was $713, up from $498 in 2020
Hyundai was $651, down from $1,171 in 2020
Stellantis NV was $630, up from $576 in 2020.

Meanwhile, Toyota fell from $423 to $401 in its fiscal year that ended March 31, 2022, and Honda plummeted by more than half from $782 to $347 during the same period, reported June 23. The other companies have a fiscal year that ends Dec. 31.
...

You went through all this trouble and people have already posted what Ford pays the dealership for the warranty work. They've already reduced the hours they pay dealers to less than the actual time it takes to do it.