5 Second Battery Limit due to Battery manufacturer?

Mach1E

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I believe the engineers' concern was heating in connections and areas that don't have temperature sensors. Just because you don't see crazy temps on scan data doesn't mean they aren't happening somewhere. Components only have a certain surge capacity. If the full current continued for too long it may have melted connectors or started to make bus bars or cell tabs get too hot and melt their insulation or risk thermal runaway in a cell. I believe the pack was designed way back when it was thought the Mach-E was going to be a compliance car only. With unexpected popularity, it was likely later decided to add a GT model, but it uses the same pack as the regular models to save on manufacturing costs. To make due with the existing pack design, "surge" capacity was added, similar in concept to overboost on a turbo car like the Focus ST.

The 4X premium draws up to 750A, while the GTPE draws up to 1050A IIRC. 750A is probably what the pack was designed for, so the extra 300A is an overboost with a moving average function applied in order to limit the power to a certain average during a timed window (e.g. 700A average over the past 10 seconds).

The proper way to fix this is to give the GT its own pack design with upgraded internals so higher currents can be maintained, similar to how the Model S Plaid has its own special battery with huge bus bars.
So you’re choosing NOT to believe the temperature sensors from the scans?

Personally, I choose to believe the hard data. And the hard data proves Ford is being way too conservative in trying to prevent heat.

There’s nothing that will convince me that the following things are necessary:

After cruising at highway speeds, the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

In cold temperatures, the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

After 5 seconds of throttle from a stop (or 2 seconds at 70 mph), the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

Should there be SOME throttling to prevent overheating? Possibly, even though though the temperature sensors say NO. But definitely they do not need to be as conservative as they have been.
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kltye

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So you’re choosing NOT to believe the temperature sensors from the scans?

Personally, I choose to believe the hard data. And the hard data proves Ford is being way too conservative in trying to prevent heat.

There’s nothing that will convince me that the following things are necessary:

After cruising at highway speeds, the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

In cold temperatures, the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

After 5 seconds of throttle from a stop (or 2 seconds at 70 mph), the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

Should there be SOME throttling to prevent overheating? Possibly, even though though the temperature sensors say NO. But definitely they do not need to be as conservative as they have been.
I believe you're missing this important sentence: "I believe the engineers' concern was heating in connections and areas that don't have temperature sensors." If there are no sensors in some areas, you don't know what the temperature is. There could be hotspots that cannot be measured directly due to lack of sensors, so they just run a model to figure out the "safe" amount of current to run over a period of time.
 

SWO

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So you’re choosing NOT to believe the temperature sensors from the scans?

Personally, I choose to believe the hard data. And the hard data proves Ford is being way too conservative in trying to prevent heat.

There’s nothing that will convince me that the following things are necessary:

After cruising at highway speeds, the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

In cold temperatures, the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

After 5 seconds of throttle from a stop (or 2 seconds at 70 mph), the GT is made as slow or possibly slower than a premium 4X.

Should there be SOME throttling to prevent overheating? Possibly, even though though the temperature sensors say NO. But definitely they do not need to be as conservative as they have been.
I think the idea is that there may not be sensors in all the locations necessary to so say no component is overheating.

Hopefully we reach a point where there is enough empirical data from warranty work for them to open things up a bit.
 

Mach1E

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I believe you're missing this important sentence: "I believe the engineers' concern was heating in connections and areas that don't have temperature sensors." If there are no sensors in some areas, you don't know what the temperature is. There could be hotspots that cannot be measured directly due to lack of sensors, so they just run a model to figure out the "safe" amount of current to run over a period of time.
Lots of “may be” and “could be” in that speculation.

There are a lot of temperature sensors on the battery and components.

So the theory is that there are a bunch of components that are heat sensitive, and those happen to be the places they DIDN’T put sensors?

Seems incompetent if that was true.

Not sure why my theory of “Ford is being conservative like with everything else” sounds less popular than “Ford built an inferior product that can’t handle the heat/power they designed it for.”

Unfortunately since Ford hasn’t said squat on the subject, we are left to theorize.
 


kltye

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Lots of “may be” and “could be” in that speculation.

There are a lot of temperature sensors on the battery and components.

So the theory is that there are a bunch of components that are heat sensitive, and those happen to be the places they DIDN’T put sensors?

Seems incompetent if that was true.

Not sure why my theory of “Ford is being conservative like with everything else” sounds less popular than “Ford built an inferior product that can’t handle the heat/power they designed it for.”

Unfortunately since Ford hasn’t said squat on the subject, we are left to theorize.
I had to go hunt for the source of "not enough temperature sensors", because I'd heard of it before, and here it is, from the Out of Spec podcast:

Yes, Ford should be more forthcoming about this. There's lots of talk about this product being the result of pivoting from just another compliance car to a "serious product", which caused weird side effects like this.
 

Mach1E

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I had to go hunt for the source of "not enough temperature sensors", because I'd heard of it before, and here it is, from the Out of Spec podcast:

Yes, Ford should be more forthcoming about this. There's lots of talk about this product being the result of pivoting from just another compliance car to a "serious product", which caused weird side effects like this.
I think I remember that same one. My take was they were overly cautious because they couldn’t rely on temp sensor feedback, so they set a hard 5 second limit.

But again, still seems they went too conservative because for the sensor feedback we do have doesn’t show a temperature problem……. At all.

And a (hopefully) unintentional consequence of the crappy programming is them pulling significant power when it’s super cold outside. Can’t convince me we have a bigger heat problem when it’s 20 below outside.
 
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machefan2022

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I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't Ford at all. Could be the battery manufacturer saying we won't warranty the batteries without it. Ford probably has a lot of pull in that situation but if the MFR draws a line in the sand there isn't much Ford can do.
 

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What’s interesting is that here in Germany Ford clearly stated that the reduction in power effects the max torque (overboost) No word about horsepower. With my 22 GT PE I don’t have the feeling that the 5 second rule isn’t that big of a deal as I also get those grey bars, but they seem to disappear pretty quickly as soon as the car does some regen. Only time i see them constantly is when the SOC is below 40% or when I consistently go over 130km/h.
Anyway…I’m pretty confident that Ford was way too cautious with this and we’ll see a OTA Update regarding that.
 

Mach1E

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What’s interesting is that here in Germany Ford clearly stated that the reduction in power effects the max torque (overboost) No word about horsepower. With my 22 GT PE I don’t have the feeling that the 5 second rule isn’t that big of a deal as I also get those grey bars, but they seem to disappear pretty quickly as soon as the car does some regen. Only time i see them constantly is when the SOC is below 40% or when I consistently go over 130km/h.
Anyway…I’m pretty confident that Ford was way too cautious with this and we’ll see a OTA Update regarding that.
If it affects torque, it affects horsepower.

Hp is just a calculation of Tq and RPM.

HP= tq x RPM/5252
 

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If it affects torque, it affects horsepower.

Hp is just a calculation of Tq and RPM.

HP= tq x RPM/5252
thanks for explaining 👍🏻
And how does the difference between the GT and the GT PE work as they have the same HP but different peak torque?
 

Mach1E

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thanks for explaining 👍🏻
And how does the difference between the GT and the GT PE work as they have the same HP but different peak torque?
Because the peak tq happens at an rpm much lower than the peak hp.

If you were to develop the “perfect” tq curve, it would look like a line that starts super high and goes straight down so that at all RPM (except 0), it had the same 480 hp.

Because of the formula above, you would have up to 960 tq at 2600 and rpm…… and still have 480 peak hp.

Peak tq on our cars seems to happen at around 3000 rpm.
 

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Can you take a photo of your IPC when driving? The driver screen? Do you still have the power and regen bar?
I have the bar area as well but never notice any grey bar during my daily driving. There are also some chinese car media test the GT version on track and keep doing laps in unbriddle mode (because there is no unbriddle extend mode in the chinese version). No one seems to have any issue about the power cap. One of them even got a lap time better then model3p with simply tire swap.
Vedio links:
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1RM4y1w7nj?p=1
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1RM4y1w7nj?p=2
 

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I always thought it was a mix of cooling and the battery. If the 5-second limit is due to the battery supplier and not something that could be changed via OTA down the road, we will be seeing a ton of 1st gen GTPE on the market once they release the Gen 2 that doesn't have this limit.
 

8Urchvy

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Driving on the FWY at about 75 cruising, you will see 1 bar...and then if you pass, you will see 3-4. nearly 90% of the time at top fwy speeds you will be 95% to the first bar. Texas highway speed limits are 70-75 mph, so always being limited.
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