RonTCat

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The discussion here is kind of interesting.

I guess I'll not buy any cell phones anymore, because I hear they are going to upgrade their OS next year. My iPhone 11/Sammy isn't going to get any upgrades. I should have leased it. LOL.
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The discussion here is kind of interesting.

I guess I'll not buy any cell phones anymore, because I hear they are going to upgrade their OS next year. My iPhone 11/Sammy isn't going to get any upgrades. I should have leased it. LOL.
Ron, a couple of things don't fit the analogy:

1. People have been trained to get a new cell phone every two years (yeah, the argument could be made the same for cars due to the popularity of leases - but some of us keep cars MUCH longer) Even then, most cell phones like my iPhone will run the new OS's for about 6 years or so until the hardware is incompatible with the software demands.

2. Cell phones are not a $60,000 investment.

This is more akin to if Apple said, you know that new Mac Pro you just bought for $10,000? Well, we are discontinuing MacOS in 2023, and you will have to run everything in Chrome OS. Not telling you when we will sunset MacOS, or if there is an upgrade path to the new OS on your 2021 machine. But it is really good for our business and our customers starting in 2023. Have a nice day.
 
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The discussion here is kind of interesting.

I guess I'll not buy any cell phones anymore, because I hear they are going to upgrade their OS next year. My iPhone 11/Sammy isn't going to get any upgrades. I should have leased it. LOL.
But that is exactly what the carriers and Samsung and Apple have started offering
 

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My main worry is that they will not be able to switch to AA and stop upgrading the current software sync4...other than that i don't mind...
 

jhalkias

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One other thing is very CLEARLY evident. The vast majority of Mach E buyers (who are early adopters still of BEV platforms) are MUCH more tech savvy than the average customer who shows up at the dealership to buy a car. Ford needs to understand their customer base (current) for BEV's better.
 


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The biggest concern isn’t upgradability per se, it’s whether support will be continued for what is now a legacy system on a product that has barely been released. Will the legacy cars continue to receive real OTA updates which are adding features, increasing efficiency and the like? Or will we be getting an occasional bug fix when required to avoid a recall campaign, or even worse, will we be limited to a updates to maps through a subscription and little else.

Those are the types of questions Ford should have anticipated. If they don’t have some answers people are going to presume the worst. And plan accordingly. Especially given we now know the date of a model refresh of one sort anyway.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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this is all in some ways an interesting nerd discussion here that happens to involve cars.

So I looked up this "Vehicle Health Reports" system and it appears that they supported it for 3 years at the latest release. The system came out in 2007, cancelled in 2018. Sync 4a, from everything I could find so I could be wrong, is literally just getting released in 2020. Guessing that it takes years to develop, you think they might just throw it all away. If it stays with a similar cycle, you could have support till 2031. I highly doubt it will be that long but I would find it utterly crazy to assume that Ford will support this for 2 years then dump all the work.

To bring up that a 2013 car is no longer 100% supported seems odd when I'm sure a ton of people would be super happy is in 2029 the MachE is getting any updates.
To be fair, I'm not the one arguing that "Ford will keep a car getting new features for ten years because reasons." I'm arguing that is demonstrably not true. Vehicle Health Reports (and Sync Services, as another example) are perfect examples of this. There was nothing stopping Ford from releasing a MyFord Touch release that took those features out of the UI (and out of the steering wheel buttons, one of which now, if pressed a certain way, calls a dead phone number) except Ford.

There was nothing stopping Ford from implementing proper Bluetooth streaming title support on the right display for MyFord Touch vehicles except Ford.

Sync 3 was announced in 2014 - one year after my 2013 model year. My car got no software updates after that. My car had effectively one to two years of support if you define support as "getting new stuff and bug fixes". I'm being very generous with Ford and saying "eh I can still get new hardware and get the image so it's supported."

Again, fixes are different than new features, and both are different than "supported" in a generous take. And Sync 4(a) is built on the same OS Sync 3 is; in some ways it's evolutionary from Sync 3. It's not like they started greenfield with the thing. The app layer - which doesn't care about the underlying OS because we have been told it's HTML5 + script - is, we think, near-greenfield, essentially, but QNX isn't.

So, all of that means "dumping QNX" isn't "throwing it all away." For multiple reasons.

The big pieces that are considered substantial for Ford are the OTA pieces for things that aren't infotainment as much as drivetrain etc. - battery controls and such. It is likely a hypothetical "Sync 5" will be released in 2023 that is Android based, based on the announcement, and start to roll out across all Ford vehicles. As soon as that happens, Sync 4(a) as we know it (Mach-E, F-150) is will be dead-end. That does not mean that things like charging curve updates couldn't happen, because those are other modules that are independent of the main infotainment pieces, and those updates could be exactly the same in Sync 4a and Sync 5 just with different deployment processes. That would mean that Sync 4a would be "supported" and the car powertrain, etc. would even be getting new features, but the infotainment wouldn't be. And it means we likely wouldn't get support for, say, a new feature in Android Auto or something.

Or, it could be that Ford says "two model years of backward updates is enough" and we don't even get the powertrain pieces.

Or it could be they do exactly like they did with the move to Sync 3 and continue to ship Mach-E with Sync 4a while everybody else starts to get Sync 5 on model refreshes. That would be even worse in some ways for Mach-E owners.

We just don't know.

But doesn't Ford have a ton to lose here by just dropping everything to get that "bigger splash". Like people are forgetting that with Options, Ford has guaranteed a buy back price. If in 3 years someone walks into the dealership looking for a used one, you think its gonna sell at all if they have to say "so yeah, this car doesn't get any more updates but promise everything works fine and you don't need to worry about it".
well, at the end of a Red Carpet Lease, Ford gets the car back too. When Sync came out, there were pre-Sync cars on lots for years, new and used. When MFT came out, Sync 1 was on lots for a couple of years new as models got refreshed, and of course there were a lot of used. When Sync 3 came out, it took years for MFT to be replaced across new models and there were plenty of used. So yes, that statement is exactly what happened, each time. Even new - once Sync 3 came out for example, MFT pretty much stopped. And it was an OS change, just like this is.

It honestly feels weird again defending this all. I worked in B2B software for ages and the amount of legacy support needed just for companies is crazy. Ford has the money and the bandwidth to not just kill a platform and devalue all their cars immediately so this is 100% not going to keep me awake at night wondering if my car has received it's last software update.
Enterprise software is not the modern software model. It's the difference between, for example, FCA Stellantis and Tesla. Tesla regularly sends out updates without worrying about them breaking things, and without worrying about major UI changes annoying people (the update around Christmas ticked a lot of people off apparently)... meanwhile UConnect 4 is big screen tweaks to UConnect 3 which is basically UConnect 2 with some new features which is basically UConnect with new features, and you pretty much get what you get. That's the Enterprise B2B model - it's why Microsoft has "Long Term Support Channel" versions of Windows 10 and why Windows Server has 10 year plus cycles (Windows Server 2008 is still supported if it's on Microsoft Azure).

We just don't know how "the new Ford" will handle this. My biggest concern is they didn't commit directly when asked. That means that either they don't know yet, or they do know and don't want to say yet. The former - cool, gives them a chance to get it right. The latter - that's what I'm worried about.

History time!
When the concept of Sync was first known, the partnership was with Microsoft and Ford. Windows Embedded Automotive existed before the deal, but for after-market add-ons to cars. My thoughts were the good news was an external technology partner was brought in to modernize what I felts cars had to be: A technology device. The bad news to me was Microsoft not consistent on embedded or dedicated hardware, with unique exception of Xbox.
This is debatable but fair enough as far as it goes. I would not take it too far. How you see this depends on your experience and background.

In 2015, Ford went to Blackberry’s QNX, replacing MS Automative. At the time, it was the closest to an off-the-shelf OS to for an embedded car system. And it worked for then. It wasn't quite rolling your own system, but the demands weren't there.
This is also fair. They could have gone AOSP like some others did or just custom end-to-end like old school embedded, or even gone ground-up with a Linux variant, but QNX was for sure the more mature and more complete choice.

There's also a bit of the "writing on the wall" with respect to the Microsoft plays in embedded. Windows CE simply no longer exists as a new system option and that I suspect that was clear to Ford in 2015.

The thread you can see along the years is Ford not building a system completely in-house. Though it depends on what components you want to pay for putting in the car, a leaner embedded system can reduce your hardware costs. The trade off is narrowed software capabilities.

We are long past the days where a low-powered embedded system will cut it. Not only with customer expectations, but with the functions of a BEV vehicle needing more compute. Traditional embedded systems are more a liability than a cost saving feature.
Any car still needs a bit of traditional embedded - e.g. hard real-time - for things like anti-lock brakes, but dedicated microcontrollers with well-worn software can handle that. It's an oversimplification, IMHO, to say even in a modern EV that "traditional embedded" doesn't have a place any longer. It's just changed like so many other things and is less critical than it once was. This confusion is actually part of Tesla's problem - the infamous "my dash crashed because the radio crashed" problem and related issues. They have conflated things too much, IMHO.

Google is currently the best available partner for Ford.
They are the only people with the full end-to-end system option at this point - lower-level OS, full presentation layer, cloud services, so they are the only available option, really. Nobody else in the entire world has such a complete package. For Google, this is an advertising data play, like literally everything else they do. Google Cloud Platform exists, like AWS originally did, because "we had to build this stuff for our use and decided others could use it". But that means that they have an OS that can collect data from endpoints and a cloud that can collect and process big data from all the endpoints.

The only other option is to go to different providers for different layers like GM is. There's pluses and minuses to that.

The dangers are Google dropping the product. What makes me less worried about this particular instance is it's a subset of the Android OS with a number of companies buying into long term support contracts. Unlike Stadia which barely got industry (game publisher) buy-in, AA is doing pretty well. Never say never, but it's a safer bet than other Google initiatives.
Even if Google drops it - which is always a concern for sure with them since literally anything but web advertising and nowadays phone-variant Android is at risk - this is less of a risk for Ford. I suspect that the agreement includes some kind of guaranteed "support" window, and suspect that Ford gets the rights to all the source code in perpetuity, so if they had to "go it alone" again, they could - or they could pull a "HERE" and team up with Geely to support the thing going forward and try to sell it to other automakers.

What happened today is an end of support announcement of QNX on Ford products. Which is fine, if the roadmap includes an upgrade path for existing models that are hardware capable.

Today was an opportunity for Ford to illustrate long term support of automative technology.
Today, the communication department failed to tell this story.
Accurate.
 
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So I looked up this "Vehicle Health Reports" system and it appears that they supported it for 3 years at the latest release. The system came out in 2007, cancelled in 2018. Sync 4a, from everything I could find so I could be wrong, is literally just getting released in 2020. Guessing that it takes years to develop, you think they might just throw it all away. If it stays with a similar cycle, you could have support till 2031. I highly doubt it will be that long but I would find it utterly crazy to assume that Ford will support this for 2 years then dump all the work.

To bring up that a 2013 car is no longer 100% supported seems odd when I'm sure a ton of people would be super happy is in 2029 the MachE is getting any updates.



But doesn't Ford have a ton to lose here by just dropping everything to get that "bigger splash". Like people are forgetting that with Options, Ford has guaranteed a buy back price. If in 3 years someone walks into the dealership looking for a used one, you think its gonna sell at all if they have to say "so yeah, this car doesn't get any more updates but promise everything works fine and you don't need to worry about it".

It honestly feels weird again defending this all. I worked in B2B software for ages and the amount of legacy support needed just for companies is crazy. Ford has the money and the bandwidth to not just kill a platform and devalue all their cars immediately so this is 100% not going to keep me awake at night wondering if my car has received it's last software update.
The problem is they sold vehicles advertising the Vehicle Health Reports right up until the day they turned the servers off. They were selling SYNC 1 vehicles in 2018. Some owners got days or potentially hours of that feature before it was gone forever. THAT is what is scaring me about this announcement.
 

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Ehh, a lot of folks seem up in arms. Me, in 3 years I would like to see if there is a screen delete retrofit that would give climate control knobs and just a reverse camera. Maybe an old school radio with a cassette eject button that is kinda clunky..
 

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Ron, a couple of things don't fit the analogy:

1. People have been trained to get a new cell phone every two years (yeah, the argument could be made the same for cars due to the popularity of leases - but some of us keep cars MUCH longer) Even then, most cell phones like my iPhone will run the new OS's for about 6 years or so until the hardware is incompatible with the software demands.

2. Cell phones are not a $60,000 investment.

This is more akin to if Apple said, you know that new Mac Pro you just bought for $10,000? Well, we are discontinuing MacOS in 2023, and you will have to run everything in Chrome OS. Not telling you when we will sunset MacOS, or if there is an upgrade path to the new OS on your 2021 machine. But it is really good for our business and our customers starting in 2023. Have a nice day.
Yes, but Ford has supported every vehicle it's ever made for at least 10 years. Saying otherwise is just FUD.
 

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Yes, but Ford has supported every vehicle it's ever made for at least 10 years. Saying otherwise is just FUD.
as I've said at least twice on this thread now, this depends on how you defined "supported."

recalls and physical parts and so on? Sure.

map updates which are a direct profit generator? Sure.

new features in customer-facing systems? not so much.

cosmetic-ish bug fixes and the like in customer-facing systems? not so much.

again we have history with Sync that I have in my book post just two before yours that proves this out. unless there's a MyFord Touch update for my 2013 that fixes this list of bugs I have that nobody including the Ford web site has told me about (*) or an official, supported Sync 3.3 to 3.4 update for the gf's 2017 C-Max that nobody including the Ford web site has told me about? (**)

(*) there isn't
(**) again, there isn't
 

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The biggest concern isn’t upgradability per se, it’s whether support will be continued for what is now a legacy system on a product that has barely been released. Will the legacy cars continue to receive real OTA updates which are adding features, increasing efficiency and the like? Or will we be getting an occasional bug fix when required to avoid a recall campaign, or even worse, will we be limited to a updates to maps through a subscription and little else.

Those are the types of questions Ford should have anticipated. If they don’t have some answers people are going to presume the worst. And plan accordingly. Especially given we now know the date of a model refresh of one sort anyway.
My thoughts exactly
 

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Tesla doesn't make too many public statements, but when they do...
“It is economically, if not technologically, infeasible to expect that such components can or should be designed to last the vehicle’s entire useful life,” Tesla said in the letter.

Do you think Ford disagrees? I do.
 

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Tesla doesn't make too many public statements, but when they do...
“It is economically, if not technologically, infeasible to expect that such components can or should be designed to last the vehicle’s entire useful life,” Tesla said in the letter.

Do you think Ford disagrees? I do.
What do we consider the life of the vehicle, 8 years? Ill be happy with that. Right now theres no guarantee we'll get past 3. We just want a clear answer as the concern is warranted. What Ford needs to realize is that you cant make statements like this without taking into consideration your current snd future customers. If you're going to jump into the EV market you are selling a Computer on wheels.
Its no longer the sell and forget model of ICE cars. EV's are all software and they need to wake up and start realizing this otherwise they wont succeed.
Enough of the marketing mumbo jumbo. I watched so many Ford webinars so many reviews to learn about this car, read every thread on this forum so I can be informed but it seems Ford's upper management knows and understands less than we do.
 

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Makes sense. Farley might view QNX, and developing an "auto OS", differently than his predecessors. He must not think this is a core skill Ford should have, and someone else can do it cheaper, like Google.

Makes sense to me too. Admittedly, I am fairly clueless about the announcement. The headline said "Navigation" so I just browsed past because that technology changes every year it seems. I still carry maps in my pickup trucks so that is pretty old school I guess.....

For those who are worried about Ford knowing where your car is at all times, this is not just a Ford thing. I think if your car was stolen, local police could call most major carmakers and have the location of the car (within 30 feet) in about 5 minutes. OTA cuts both ways.
I for one am not worried at all. Ford can have any and all data they want from my vehicle location history, destinations, use, driving habits, charge habits etc. As far as I am concerned, they can use that data to improve their product and make it even more useful for future buyers. Totally cool with that. In my mind....if they want to pay for the modem connectivity....then they can have my data as payment. Works for me. ?
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