Another ID.4 vs Mach-E thread

DrSteveBrule

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Saw a US-built pre-production ID.4 at an EA charger today (free Thanksgiving charging weekend and all). Had manufacturer plates but looked like a production model.

Spoke the driver and watched him charge.

At 80% SoC the US-built ID.4 was accepting 90 kW!!!! I was watching the EA station in awe while my Mach-E on the other side was getting 8-9 kW at 83% SoC. Ford is massively throttling us. Driver/engineer said they now can peak 160 kW charge.

I also listened for the battery cooling fans... on the ID.4 it was blowing like a leaf blower. The Kona EV and Mach-E next to it... silent. Both the Kona and Mach-E throttle charging at high SoC. I was seeing single digit kW when that car was at 90% SoC.
90 kW at 80% is nuts. I wonder if/when VW will unlock that for the German-made ID.4s.

 

voxel

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"Lack of auto-hold in the US-version of ID.4 was one of my biggest complaints (HUD and auto-hold are available in the European versions). I'm not disabling it."

Turning Auto-Hold off only eliminates the function when the Mach-E is level. The MME will still not move if you are on an incline until you press the accelerator with the Auto-Hold off.

FYI with 1PD active... this setting does nothing or it does it not noticeable. I drove 200 miles today in stop and go traffic (ugh... Thanksgiving) turning the setting off and on - and yesterday I tried it in a empty downtown office garage on an incline.

I can hear and feel the parking brake and engage. It's not smooth transition from stop-to-acceleration and braking-to-stop. I prefer to have janky auto-hold than no auto-hold.

This is something Ford can fix with the next iteration along with their battery cooling... lol.
 

voxel

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90 kW at 80% is nuts. I wonder if/when VW will unlock that for the German-made ID.4s.
I didn't ask the driver/engineer. I also promised not to post photos of his car. He wasn't looking for attention. It's either an OTA change (German cars will get it) ornew US-built battery pack (SK innovation) that somebody else speculated. Who knows.
 

silverelan

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90 kW at 80% is nuts. I wonder if/when VW will unlock that for the German-made ID.4s.
The ID4 has been spotted testing in Europe at 170kW. The ID5 with the same pack will charge from 5-80% in 29 minutes and they're supposed to OTA that to the US ID4s eventually.

IIRC, the MME and ID3/4/5 all get their pouch cells from the same LG factory in Wroclaw, Poland. I'd bet dollars to donuts they're the exact same cell.

https://www.evspecifications.com/en/news/01402da

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/1...oduction-of-ncm712-batteries-in-poland-in-q1/
 

DrSteveBrule

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The ID4 has been spotted testing in Europe at 170kW. The ID5 with the same pack will charge from 5-80% in 29 minutes and they're supposed to OTA that to the US ID4s eventually.

IIRC, the MME and ID3/4/5 all get their pouch cells from the same LG factory in Wroclaw, Poland. I'd bet dollars to donuts they're the exact same cell.

https://www.evspecifications.com/en/news/01402da

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/06/1...oduction-of-ncm712-batteries-in-poland-in-q1/
Where I live it's hard to get a donut under a dollar! ?

Whether it's the same cell or not, the cooling and electrical systems are quite different between the ID.4 and MME, as we saw in the Munro teardowns.
 


silverelan

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Where I live it's hard to get a donut under a dollar! ?

Whether it's the same cell or not, the cooling and electrical systems are quite different between the ID.4 and MME, as we saw in the Munro teardowns.
Mmmm...donuts.

I'm saying that the cells aren't the limiting here. In fact, I am not convinced it's the battery pack and its cooling that is the problem at all because it's a big hunk of mass that takes time to heat up. Instead, I buy the theory that it's the related componentry, like possibly the inverter, that just can't handle sustained high current loads and is in danger of getting fried.
 

DrSteveBrule

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Mmmm...donuts.

I'm saying that the cells aren't the limiting here. In fact, I am not convinced it's the battery pack and its cooling that is the problem at all because it's a big hunk of mass that takes time to heat up. Instead, I buy the theory that it's the related componentry, like possibly the inverter, that just can't handle sustained high current loads and is in danger of getting fried.
I think you need to consider batteries not as a single mass with an overall temperature but as an array of cells which each have their own hot spots. Non-LFP Teslas do extremely well with charging and acceleration, but they cool each very small cell (and do so relatively directly). Ford is trying to wick away heat from much larger cells through the bottom of the pack (indirectly). So whether by measurements or calculations (likely both), the strategy has to be to limit hot spots within the cells, both for safety and longevity. I'm not sure that's the bottleneck, but I think we can't rule it out. It would explain, in part, why the ER has higher charging and acceleration performance despite the motors and (I think) the inverters being the same.
 

Pangea

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This thread is a little old, but I am piping in as I just cancelled my ID4 order yesterday and ordered the Mach E. When I ordered my ID4, I wasn't in love with it, but I already have a VW CC and was in the dealership getting it serviced when they showed me the ID4 and sold me on it. It drove well and looked ok, but like I said, I never loved it and was concerned about the range. I decide to begin entertaining other options when I got an update from VW that my order, which was placed 3 months ago and was supposed to be 6 months total, was now estimated to be 6-9 months out!

Long story short, I cancelled it after test driving the Mach E which I like more and feeling much more comfortable with the longer range! I am hopeful that I will get my Mach E sooner than I would have received the ID4 I ordered 3 months ago!
 

B25Nut

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The Drive also wasn't happy with the ID.4:

https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/4...iew-a-practical-ev-ruined-by-frustrating-tech

Unfortunately, the frustrating user experience and glitchy systems undermine the comfortable and safe operation of the vehicle. As I pointed out above, I did begin to get used to some of these issues and even started discovering workarounds after almost two weeks behind the wheel, proving that almost anyone can get used to a shitty user experience. I suspect this one is a bitter pill buyers will just have to swallow. However, my experience also begs the question as to why people must adapt to inherently clunky systems at all. Shouldn't a UI and UX be smooth and intuitive immediately to everyone climbing into the driver's seat for the first time? And while the OS issues can be fixed via over-the-air updates, only a hardware redesign could address the lack of usable buttons and knobs the ID.4 desperately needs.
 

voxel

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DaleL

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This thread began a year ago. Some things have changed quite a bit between the Mach-e and the ID.4. First is price. The 2023 Mach-e price is much higher than the 2022 model. In contrast VW raised the ID.4 price by only a couple thousand for the 2023 model year.

A Mach-e Premium SR RWD has a 0-60 time of 5.8 sec, 247 mile EPA range, sticker is $56,275 with delivery. It has a 70 kWh battery.
An ID.4 Pro S Plus AWD (top of the line) has a 0-60 of 5.8 sec, 255 mile EPA range, sticker is $55,040 with delivery. It has a 77 kWh battery.

The 2023 USA version of the ID.4 is manufactured in Chattanooga, TN. The battery is reported to come from the new SK Innovation plant in Georgia. The SK Innovation battery cells are reported to be more advanced than the LG cells in the previous models of the ID.4. The ID.4 Pro S (and Plus) all come with a trailer hitch and are rated for 2,700 pounds towing. A roof rack is available.

A top end Mach-e (Premium ER AWD) has a 0-60 time of 4.8 sec which is similar to a Tesla Model Y. It also has a sticker with delivery of $$67,575 which is also similar to a Model Y. The range is also similar more similar to a Model Y. Ford and VW don't exaggerate the way Tesla does. As a result the Model Y EPA range of 330 miles does not hold up. Edmunds reported 304, 317, and 272 respectively for earlier versions of the Mach-e Premium AWD ER, Model Y, and ID.4 Pro S.

The ID.4 doesn't compete with the Mach-e. It was designed to compete against a top end hybrid Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4. ($39,845 sticker for the Honda versus $48,790 - $7,500 tax credit = $41,090 for the ID.4 Pro S RWD.) Both accelerate from 0-60 in 7.6 seconds.

The Mach-e ER AWD competes against the Tesla Model Y.

One slight issue with Ford and their dealers. According to Kelly Blue Book, the Mach-e dealer invoice and the MSRP (sticker) are the same. Thus Ford dealers charge a "dealer" fee which is typically about $700. Tesla's price is Tesla's price. Kelly Blue Book reports that the MSRP is $2,000 more than the invoice for the 2022 ID.4 S. Thus VW dealers make a tidy profit at MSRP.
 
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newmme

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The ID.4 doesn't compete with the Mach-e. It was designed to compete against a top end hybrid Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4. ($39,845 sticker for the Honda versus $48,790 - $7,500 tax credit = $41,090 for the ID.4 Pro S RWD.) Both accelerate from 0-60 in 7.6 seconds.

The Mach-e ER AWD competes against the Tesla Model Y.
This graph is a good visual for your great write-up

1666383733073.png
 

voxel

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Yes a year old thread.

As for "The ID.4 doesn't compete with the Mach-e. It was designed to compete against a top end hybrid Honda CRV or Toyota RAV4. "

My 20221 ID.4 Pro RWD was no better than a base gas RAV4 at $27K that happen to have an electric drivetrain. It's still overpriced even after the tax credit. A loaded RAV4 XLE ($33K) competes with a $53K ID.4 Pro S Gradient.

With that said... the ID.4 Standard (base trim with smaller battery) is a great deal IMO. It's cheap and competes with the Bolt. 200-ish miles of range at $31K after tax credit puts it in the old 2021 Niro EV / Kona EV / Bolt price range.

As for the other trims... meh. Folks will buy it because of the tax credit and not because it is a better EV.

The top-trim 2023 ID.4 Pro S Plus at $55K was supposed to have 360 camera and premium audio but premium audio got cut. It's still the most "budgety" of the crossover EVs in terms of quality + price. Thankfully they nuked the cloth seats on the base trim.

The best crossover EV IMO is the Nissan Ariya. It's not a weird hatchback like the Ioniq 5 or EV6. It's what the ID.4 should have been. Plus it has a 87 kWh and the top-trim is super loaded - hands free driving, 360 camera, digital rear view mirror, premium audio, premium interior.

Even the base trims Ariya are premium feeling. I test drove two in late July at a Ride and Drive.... I also test drove a 2022 ID.4 AWD Pro S Gradient a week before the Ariya and declined delivery of it. I could not get over the cheap interior, poor audio, haptic infotainment system, lack of 360 camera of the ID.4. All the things that bothered me about my 2021 version that were not fixed. At $53K it felt overpriced. I'd rather buy a RAV4 Prime XSE PP.

 

 
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