Battery Technology vs. Winter

RobB

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These winter performance four wheel drift videos are glossy, but overlook one of the most important daily concerns: battery performance.

Eight years later, Tesla is putting a heat pump in Model Y to deal with cold weather.

I haven’t seen anything related to this topic regarding Mach-E.

May not mean much in California, but in the Upper Midwest and Alaska, this technology is crucial.

Ford, please talk to us.

https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump-for-consistent-range-in-cold-climates/
https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump-for-consistent-range-in-cold-climates/
 
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dbsb3233

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JamieGeek

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At this point I don't think its as crucial as it once was.

When EVs could only go 70 miles and would drop to 35 miles in winter (basically making them unusable--or you had to go to great lengths to use them like turning off the heat, riding with the windows cracked to prevent fogging, buying a 12V heated blanket, etc.) it was crucial.

With ranges 200+ miles now it really isn't that big of a deal.

I'm getting 150+ miles in the winter in my Bolt. I don't even think twice about turning on the heat (although I still precondition it in the morning when its still plugged in).

As batteries get larger and larger the % consumed due to the heater in the winter will be lower.

Sure would I like all 238+ miles of range in the winter--yes--but I know realistically that wont happen.

There is another point to heat pumps: The only work down to about freezing or just below. Thus for those <0F days in winter the car is still going to turn on the resistive heater--no getting around it.
 
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RobB

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These winter performance four wheel drift videos are glossy, but overlook one of the most important daily concerns: battery performance.

Eight years later, Tesla is putting a heat pump in Model Y to deal with cold weather.

I haven’t seen anything related to this topic regarding Mach-E.

May not mean much in California, but in the Upper Midwest and Alaska, this technology is crucial.

Ford, please talk to us.

https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump-for-consistent-range-in-cold-climates/
https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump-for-consistent-range-in-cold-climates/
[/QUOTE
Thanks, forgot having read this. Seems there is reason for hanging on to an ICE during the transition.
 

mark360

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These winter performance four wheel drift videos are glossy, but overlook one of the most important daily concerns: battery performance.

Eight years later, Tesla is putting a heat pump in Model Y to deal with cold weather.

I haven’t seen anything related to this topic regarding Mach-E.

May not mean much in California, but in the Upper Midwest and Alaska, this technology is crucial.

Ford, please talk to us.

https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump-for-consistent-range-in-cold-climates/
https://electrek.co/2020/03/13/tesla-model-y-has-a-heat-pump-for-consistent-range-in-cold-climates/
Rob,

Heat pumps are useless in temperatures below 40 degrees. The heat pump in the Model Y, as I understand it, still uses about 4KW of power vs the old 4KW of power. This reduces energy usage by roughly 40% in conditions where it is 40F or warmer. Below 40F, it'll use the high power resistive heater.

The 4kw heater in my Model 3 only uses a ton of energy if it is colder than freezing outside, other variables play a much more important role in using energy in the car. Preheating the cabin uses a lot of energy. Surprisingly, if it's cold and sunny the car doesn't really need heat with a sun roof.

For example, the battery has to be maintained above a certain condition when driving in cold weather. That combined with increased air density plays a huge part in decreased range. I'm always looking at 30% less range in the winter weather I use the heat or not.
 
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mark360

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You also have to remember the Mach E will have a 98KW battery pack for the Long Range version. a 4kw heater, proportionally, uses less of the battery than my 75KW battery in my Model 3.

The Mach E's driving inefficiency's by a bigger battery will make the heater have less of an impact than the Tesla.
 
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LYTMCQ

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Heat pumps are useless in temperatures below 40 degrees.
THIS!!! When I went solar, put in electric heat pumps, super efficient but below 40, they can't keep the house at 72 without the 2kW baseboard heaters I put in.

Same on the Tesla even if it had a heat pump, if the car is cold, it would be no different than the Subaru, the car has to warm up and then warm up the fluid and then it can start to heat the car. Coming out of work, same issue. Heat pump could not kick in for 10-20 minutes. One of the nice things about the resistive heater is instant on.

Tesla would still need to have the resistive heater.

Heat pump would save 16 miles an hour of the 4kW resistive heater load once the motor warmed up so mainly an energy saver for longer rids in colder weather.
 

mark360

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THIS!!! When I went solar, put in electric heat pumps, super efficient but below 40, they can't keep the house at 72 without the 2kW baseboard heaters I put in.

Same on the Tesla even if it had a heat pump, if the car is cold, it would be no different than the Subaru, the car has to warm up and then warm up the fluid and then it can start to heat the car. Coming out of work, same issue. Heat pump could not kick in for 10-20 minutes. One of the nice things about the resistive heater is instant on.

Tesla would still need to have the resistive heater.

Heat pump would save 16 miles an hour of the 4kW resistive heater load once the motor warmed up so mainly an energy saver for longer rids in colder weather.
If it's cloudy during your drive, then yes you would start to save range. It is a nice addition to the Tesla, for when it's cloudy and rainy and cold. Would certainly add range in that scenario, but how much?

I highly doubt the heater in my Model 3 runs at 100% power (4kw) once the cabin is warm, so you'd be looking at even less loss than your 16 mile savings figure. You may save 20-30 miles max on an entire 4 hour trip (about the time you can drive before stopping) with the heat pump.

If I had to pull a number out my rear, I would say the heater uses 8 miles range an hour on a 32 degree day. If the sun is out, I don't have the heater on at all normally and just use the heated seats.

On the coldest of days and worst conditions, it's not uncommon to have 50% range loss in an EV.
 
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mark360

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Bottom line - the 30%+ range hit in the winter is not going away. No matter if they put a heat pump in it or not.

When I first got my Model 3, I was shocked at just how rain affects range. Tire pressure, cold weather, etc.

Sentry mode uses like 1 miles per hour.
 

Mopey

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On the coldest of days and worst conditions, it's not uncommon to have 50% range loss in an EV.
50% decrease in range is the number I have been told to expect for Alaskan winters. Fortunately, it is only a 5 minute commute to work. With a heated garage at home and a company-provided plugin at work, I expect both me and the battery pack to be "toasty" warm.
 

dbsb3233

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I just found this article today about battery stuff. I will let you engineer types figure it out for the rest of us.

https://fordauthority.com/2020/03/o...rts-supplier-has-worked-with-ford-since-1922/
On a loosely related note... that Satin Blue wrap looks so cool on the Mach-e. Way better than the glossy flat baby blue they call Grabber Blue, IMO. If they offered that color, I'd seriously consider getting it instead of the red I'm planning on getting.
 

eastern refugee

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My question as we ALL know I am a novice.
Audi batteries are the best. Someone stated Ford wanted to keep price affordable. One more thing to factor in is that Ford is also spending $11 Billion to work with EA as well. Is it at all possible that Ford will do with Batteries what Audi does and part of that $11B is factored in?? Remember Ford on the first video stayed that ALL car manufacturers lose money on EV however Ford says they will make a profit on every car. The only way this can seriously occur is massive sales. In order to get past the first year people will be looking at batteries. In short they HAVE to get it right. Thoughts anyone???
 

eastern refugee

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I forgot. VW OWNS Audi
 

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One more thing to factor in is that Ford is also spending $11 Billion to work with EA as well. Is it at all possible that Ford will do with Batteries what Audi does and part of that $11B is factored in??
The $11 billion Ford is spending is the whole restructuring plan. Not just EA, batteries or BEVs but the whole electrification strategy too. Making our products hybrids and plug in hybrids, connectivity and autonomous vehicles. Also cutting waste and streamlining processes. Oh and the campus transformation projects as well, to consolidate our facilities into new and refurbished buildings.
 
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