Better peak charging rate or charging curve possible?

Mathington

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With the charging improvements that VW is rolling out to the MEB platform vehicles with the version 2.4-3.1 software updates, I started to wonder if it's possible for Ford to do the same with the Mach-E.

I understand that many of the modules are updatable via FDRS or OTA but what I wasn't sure if the limitation is software or hardware related. How close Ford is to the limits of the components is Ford currently operating. Is the limiting factor for such an update the components themselves or limitations in other systems like the cooling capacity of the cooling loop.

My SR AWD has seen peak charging of 119kW but only held that for 3 min before settling down to 89kW-92kW charging. I understand that the voltage on the pack isn't overly high but I'm wondering why we couldn't pump more amps to make up the difference and bring the charging rate back up higher.
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With all of the HVJB failures, I doubt Ford can improve the peak rate. I also think they have battery cooling issues, and that is why they only sustain that peak rate for a short period.

They did improve the rate above 80%, but that is really no all that beneficial in my mind.
 
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Mathington

Mathington

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The peak charging over 80% would be a huge improvement for me on road trips as someone with a standard range battery. I need to get all the energy I can over 80% while travelling.

I agree that the HVBJB issues are definitely not a good sign of the hardware's ability to handle higher loads/temperatures.
 

ZuleMME

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I was actually pleasantly surprised with how good the charging was for 10-20 up to 80% on my trip. Consistantly only about 30 minutes and I was on my way. Barely enough time to get the 2 kids out, into the nearby store, bathroomed and back in to continue. And it was a welcome break to the "are we there yet" mantra. Granted the standard pack I guess charges slower but that should be a linear adaption as it's also less dense.

Munro found Ford was cooling a plastic plate between the cooling channels and the battery pouches. Not a great design for rapid cooling. I imagine this is a limit of the design but arguably could be pushed further at the expense of long life.
 
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Mathington

Mathington

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I was actually pleasantly surprised with how good the charging was for 10-20 up to 80% on my trip. Consistantly only about 30 minutes and I was on my way. Barely enough time to get the 2 kids out, into the nearby store, bathroomed and back in to continue. And it was a welcome break to the "are we there yet" mantra. Granted the standard pack I guess charges slower but that should be a linear adaption as it's also less dense.

Munro found Ford was cooling a plastic plate between the cooling channels and the battery pouches. Not a great design for rapid cooling. I imagine this is a limit of the design but arguably could be pushed further at the expense of long life.
I would be happy with a 30-min 10%-80% charge if it was consistently like that. I haven't done a lot of DC fast charging and never did 10%-80%. Usually I only charged 20% over a 15min break before going on my way, but that is because I haven't done any longer road trips where I needed more than one short DCFC stop.

I forgot about that Munro video about the battery cooling. I'm curious to see breakdown of the lightning's battery pack to see how it's different from an achitecture/cooling perspective vs the Mach-E battery pack.

Next time I'm DCFC, I will have to check the temp difference between the hottest and coolest battery cell to see if there is a wide margin.
 


ZuleMME

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I would be happy with a 30-min 10%-80% charge if it was consistently like that. I haven't done a lot of DC fast charging and never did 10%-80%. Usually I only charged 20% over a 15min break before going on my way, but that is because I haven't done any longer road trips where I needed more than one short DCFC stop.

I forgot about that Munro video about the battery cooling. I'm curious to see breakdown of the lightning's battery pack to see how it's different from an achitecture/cooling perspective vs the Mach-E battery pack.

Next time I'm DCFC, I will have to check the temp difference between the hottest and coolest battery cell to see if there is a wide margin.
Yep honestly I really wish I had taken the time to breakout the obd2 connector and carscanner to watch readings. But with the kids and wife and the temperature of the desert I just didn't have time for that added complication. I was just really really happy not to have a HVBJB issue on the drive. And hey, now my car has taken a charge at the Aria Hotel and Casino free spots - a large feat considering they are about the only 2 on the strip that are open and free without valet... lol.

Did 6 DCFC's Denver -> Vegas and 8 DCFC's Vegas -> Denver. The last which was completely un-needed but I thought I still had 1 mountain pass to go. Ended up being all downhill.
 
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Mathington

Mathington

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Yep honestly I really wish I had taken the time to breakout the obd2 connector and carscanner to watch readings. But with the kids and wife and the temperature of the desert I just didn't have time for that added complication. I was just really really happy not to have a HVBJB issue on the drive. And hey, now my car has taken a charge at the Aria Hotel and Casino free spots - a large feat considering they are about the only 2 on the strip that are open and free without valet... lol.
I'm going on a long 2,000km road trip this weekend and plan on documenting as much as I can including things like charging times, rates, battery temps, etc. It will be quite hot as well, so it will be a good test of the Mach-E's thermal management systems.

There isn't a lot of info out there on the SR AWD models so I'm hoping this road trip will prove useful to others.
 

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I would be happy with a 30-min 10%-80% charge if it was consistently like that. I haven't done a lot of DC fast charging and never did 10%-80%. Usually I only charged 20% over a 15min break before going on my way, but that is because I haven't done any longer road trips where I needed more than one short DCFC stop.

I forgot about that Munro video about the battery cooling. I'm curious to see breakdown of the lightning's battery pack to see how it's different from an achitecture/cooling perspective vs the Mach-E battery pack.

Next time I'm DCFC, I will have to check the temp difference between the hottest and coolest battery cell to see if there is a wide margin.
I consistently go 20-80 in around 20 minutes, that's plenty fast and also barely gives enough time to do stuff at the stop like go to the bathroom
 

kltye

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I've closely monitored battery pack temps via OBD, and it looks like they (Ford) want to keep temps to below 100F in general. Couple of things:
1) I don't know how accurate/reliable the OBD readings are. If they don't have enough sensors, I might not be seeing any hot spots in the pack.
2) E-GMP cars (and Tesla as well, IIRC) allow the pack to go over 120F. I don't think they have anything particularly special in their chemistry that ensures pack longevity at those temperatures, so I wonder if it's Ford again being (needlessly) conservative.
3) The HVBJB thing is worrisome to me for allowing higher sustained charging rates. In fact, that was my #1 concern over them not replacing everyone's HVBJB (I'm selfish because I have an ER RWD, which so far hasn't shown any issues).
4) If battery cooling is insufficient, why aren't sustained speeds faster when ambient temperatures are lower? Once again it feels like the car doesn't have enough temperature data to be able to make decisions on temperature rather than total watt-hours in and out over time.
 

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If you're only seeing low 100s it could also be the DCFC station. They aren't all the same and the labeling on them is deceptive.

For example a 200kw Shell Recharge station will only deliver 50kw to the MME because of it's low amperage, while a 150kw EA station will normally peak for me at about 150. Granted it's not there for long, but 119 seems low. It also depends on how low the battery is. For example, if you start DCFC at 50% SOC you won't likely get to higher delivery numbers. Temperature also plays a role. So there's a number of variables.

What station are you charging at? Can you provide the location of it?

Here's an example of InsideEVs testing of the MME charge curve pre-charge curve updates (so ignore the 80%+ values):

Ford Mustang Mach-E Better peak charging rate or charging curve possible? 1658857519896
 
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I have a 2022 SR RWD. I’ve DC fast charged 3 times since Memorial Day, including this past Sunday. The time to 80% isn’t bad if you have the updated charge curve. I peak at 116kw for about 3 mins but Ford says that the SR pack is good for a max of 110kw.

Where Ford falls behind certain EV manufacturers is the ability to hold the charge curve at a somewhat high rate after 80%. All of the manufacturers drop the charge rate after 80%, but Ford is one of the worst offenders. They’re not as bad as Toyota and from the sounds of it, the cooling of the battery is likely the reason for the not so good rate after 80%, but can you at least keep the rate at 25 or 35kw after 91.5% state of charge?

My charging experience is that once I get to 95% there’s not point in staying bc the rate drops to 8kw, which is slower than my level 2 EVSE at my home.
 

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With the charging improvements that VW is rolling out to the MEB platform vehicles with the version 2.4-3.1 software updates, I started to wonder if it's possible for Ford to do the same with the Mach-E.
Nobody knows if the 2021 ID.4s can be upgraded to faster charging curves or whether it is only available in 2022+ models. I saw a prototype US-built ID.4 near Tampa back in Nov 2021 that had the upgrade charging curve... It's now July 2022 and VW NOT has provided a single software upgrade to ID.4 owners.

I test drove and declined my 2022 ID.4 AWD order which had the upgrade charging and latest 3.1 software. The software changes seemed so minimal... a slicker UI (but still laggy) with the same problematic haptic controls and ancient travel assist system. I have more faith that Ford will push out OTAs and updates than VW.
 

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I DC charged my 2022 Premium AWD ER to burn up EA credits and I saw 95 kW around 63% (have a photo) and 71 kW around 79% (also a photo) which dropped to 40-ish kW at 80%

Florida temps (90Fs) and after a 40 mile drive so the conditions were ideal

The charging curve with the 2022 is definitely better than the graph above.

It took me a bit to pull out my phone and in that time I saw 95-98 kW which dropped to 91-93 kW and stayed there.

Ford Mustang Mach-E Better peak charging rate or charging curve possible? 52D1281E-85A2-4781-9A88-405406F58F68
 

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I DC charged my 2022 Premium AWD ER to burn up EA credits and I saw 95 kW around 63% (have a photo) and 71 kW around 79% (also a photo) which dropped to 40-ish kW at 80%

Florida temps (90Fs) and after a 40 mile drive so the conditions were ideal

The charging curve with the 2022 is definitely better than the graph above.
Which is why I said that it's pre-charge curve updates. You have the charge curve update which means that you will charge at a higher rate than that of the image.
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