silverelan

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I kind of doubt Ford is "hiding" 4 kwh when 88 usable kwh is all over their marketing. I'm not a lawyer but that would be a pretty clear case of false advertising I would think.
Bjorn's calculations seem pretty solid. It's 3-4kWh that he's coming up short by, so like 4% or something. It's a buffer on top of a buffer? Kind of weird.





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BlueMach

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Okay, I think this statement is ridiculous. No EV recommends charging to 100%. None. Why are you holding the Mach-E to a higher standard? My current EV won't even let you charge to 100%. It stops at 94%.

I'm honestly okay with slowing down at 80%. Will there be times you need more than 80%? Maybe. I honestly doubt it. Yes, there's holes in the network. I think that means you just don't go there, not charge to 100% and hope for the best. I'd rather Ford limit speeds above 80% than take the Tesla approach. Tesla throttles above 80% as well, but not as much. Model S and Xs are having an issue now where 2018 and earlier models (no reason to think this won't happen to the 2019 and 2020 models as well in the coming year or two) are being limited to less than 100kW (I think it's around 80kW) for their entire charging session. Tesla says this is to protect the battery.
Nobody said 100% all the time. But if it can't ever DCFC to 100% *EVER* then it really doesn't have a 100% capacity. Tesla allows you to go up to 100% when you need to, and it will Supercharge all the way up there. Tesla charges at 98% faster than Mach-E charges at 80%.

If you have an EV that forces you to stop at 94%, you have a bad EV. Plain and simple.

You do not get to decide where I travel, and neither does Ford. That's what's so offensive about Ford's DCFC taper - they're saying they know better about where I can travel than I do.
 

BlueMach

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I agree except they already put aside 10kWh. So for me, the "80%" cliff should be at our ~90%. They have already stated that charging is at the top of the list. ...but when? I'm guessing a couple of months.

The video showed that Ford has given us a charge from 10-80% 5 minutes faster than they promised. ... in the cold.
Exactly this.

Nobody (I think) is saying Mach-E should be accepting 150 kW at 99% SoC.

But to STOP DCFC a 80% and revert to AC speeds while tying up a potentially expensive per-minute charger for over an hour to finish charging, that's ridiculous and unacceptable.

Did Ford's tests never take Mach-E off-interstate?
 

timbop

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The generally accepted principle by all experienced BEV road trippers is that to make the best time you cap DCFC charging at 80% or less unless you can't make it to the next charger. I learned that within a few weeks of joining here and doing research, watching videos, etc. Plan a trip with any BEV in ABRP, and you will see that it follows the same philosophy of optimizing time for an extra stop or 2 along your route. Bjorn is atypical in that respect. Watch any of @OutofSpecKyle's videos in any car and you'll see that's how he does it. The same goes for just about any of the other road trippers I've seen.

If you're looking for a reason to complain/not get the car, then by all means focus on the DCFC charging speed above 80% and don't get a Mach E. If you're on the fence about it, be aware that every BEV manufacturer that can do OTA tweaks the charging curve as they get more data.
 

NoPlanetB

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Agree that when optimising overall travel time it often makes sense to stop DCFC at 80%. But I would like to have the option to fast-charge for longer. I don’t always optimise for minimum travel time. I might prefer fewer but longer stops, e. g. for shopping/dining/a conference call/…, even if this extends the overall duration of the trip. Of course, the extra time should be used sensibly, charging at a reasonable rate.

My i3 94Ah (33 kWh total battery size) sustains its maximum charge rate (50 kW), or just under, to well above 90% SoC. I am always amazed how long it keeps going. I do believe that BMW is reasonably conservative with respect to battery life. Hence I am struggling to understand why the Mach-E ER, with three times the battery size, cannot do at least say 80 kW to 90%.

This is not a deal breaker for me, I am prepared to work around this limitation for a while, but I do maintain that Ford needs to fix this OTA sooner rather than later.
 

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That's a good point Tim. I've planned a few long distance routes in ABRP, and for each trip, it has me stopping at 1 or 2 more Superchargers, but only stopping for 15-18 min at each one (VA to Boston)
I really like how ABRP lets you tweak the plan as well - you can adjust the charging levels at various stops to accomodate meal breaks and then non-meal stops. I've mapped out several road trips, adding more charging time in some locations for lunch/dinner which then decreases the time at the next stop. Of course, since the next stop starts at a lower SOC and the meal stop is at a larger SOC the total time goes up a little, but it's a reasonable compromise. It gives you a reason to actually get out of the car, walk a little, and eat a more leisurely meal rather than wolfing down a burger while you're driving.

I really hope Ford's NAV adds features like this, otherwise I'll be using ABRP for trip planning and just put the waypoints in the NAV.

This is not a deal breaker for me, I am prepared to work around this limitation for a while, but I do maintain that Ford needs to fix this OTA sooner rather than later.
I think they will. They're going to want to gather lots of data first, though.
 

silverelan

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There's at least a couple of problems with the MME's charge profile. First, the 150kW max charging speed is so minimally achieved that it's practically a marketing stunt.

Second, the 80% cliff increases the difficulty when drivers are trying to get across an otherwise marginal but doable gap. Headwinds, bad weather, station downtimes, etc can really throw a road trip's normal 60% to 5% strategy out the window and getting to 90+% might just be the solution.

I'm reasonably optimistic Ford will change the charging characteristics to address these two issues. Hopefully it's this year and for the better.
 

Dan G

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Nobody said 100% all the time. But if it can't ever DCFC to 100% *EVER* then it really doesn't have a 100% capacity. Tesla allows you to go up to 100% when you need to, and it will Supercharge all the way up there. Tesla charges at 98% faster than Mach-E charges at 80%.

If you have an EV that forces you to stop at 94%, you have a bad EV. Plain and simple.

You do not get to decide where I travel, and neither does Ford. That's what's so offensive about Ford's DCFC taper - they're saying they know better about where I can travel than I do.
My car is great. It's one of the most efficient EVs on the market. Better than Tesla. It just has a tiny battery. It makes complete sense why they say no to 100% fast charging.

But it sounds as if you already go somewhere that you'll need to charge over 80%. If that is the case, as you mentioned, there are other cars that will get you to where you need to go. Or, just wait on the Mustang and see if they do anything to the charging curve over the next year.
 

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There's at least a couple of problems with the MME's charge profile. First, the 150kW max charging speed is so minimally achieved that it's practically a marketing stunt.

Second, the 80% cliff increases the difficulty when drivers are trying to get across an otherwise marginal but doable gap. Headwinds, bad weather, station downtimes, etc can really throw a road trip's normal 60% to 5% strategy out the window and getting to 90+% might just be the solution.

I'm reasonably optimistic Ford will change the charging characteristics to address these two issues. Hopefully it's this year and for the better.
While I really only intended to use the mach-e for local journeys and the daily commute so will be charging overnight, one would hope that ford improves the charge characteristics and that the current set up is them just a result of being extremely conservative and once they start to get data on charging from users will make the much needed and necessary adjustments, otherwise long term it won't look good for anyone that wants to road trip a GT performance with its projected 235 mile range as you will be spending an awful lot of time short hopping between chargers.
 

silverelan

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While I really only intended to use the mach-e for local journeys and the daily commute so will be charging overnight, one would hope that ford improves the charge characteristics and that the current set up is them just a result of being extremely conservative and once they start to get data on charging from users will make the much needed and necessary adjustments, otherwise long term it won't look good for anyone that wants to road trip a GT performance with its projected 235 mile range as you will be spending an awful lot of time short hopping between chargers.
Until there's fast & reliable charging stops available at least every 50 miles on freeways, we really need faster access to that final 20% of the capacity.

I drive from Seattle to Boise annually and EA is the only game in town for some major stretches. It can be 85 miles or more between stations across mountain ranges.
 

buzznwood

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Until there's fast & reliable charging stops available at least every 50 miles on freeways, we really need faster access to that final 20% of the capacity.

I drive from Seattle to Boise annually and EA is the only game in town for some major stretches. It can be 85 miles or more between stations across mountain ranges.
One of my work colleagues gave up using their model 3 on long road trips a few years back and reverted to the family hybrid, due to the fact that when they ventured out to visit relatives when traveling on the interstates despite how well placed the superchargers are there would be a couple of spots where you either had to drop your speed to way below the flow of traffic or have to charge up above 80% to reach the next super charger, and that is with tesla charging speeds and driving range they found the short hops between chargers worked better if a bit tedious.

I venture out to the national parks multiple times a year and and have already plugged the various routes into the online trip planners, and with the expected range of the GT, I'll be taking the focus as I want to spend my time enjoying the natural beauty of the national parks not taking in the sites around charge points.
 

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I think there are three charging issues for road trips, and the 80% cliff is actually the least important. In order....
1. Need a lot more DCFC locations.
2. Battery pre-conditioning
3. Extend the cliff to a more reasonable 90-95%.

Two of these issues can be fixed with a software update, but the most important one is just gonna take... patience.
 

silverelan

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Charging from the live stream
In xx minutes it charged xx kWh
0- 0 @9%
5– 9. @20%
10– 18.5 @30%
15– 27 @40%
20– 34.5 @49%
25– 41 @56%
30– 47.5 @63%
35– 54.5 @71%
40- 60.5 @78%
9-80% in ~41 minutes

It only hit 142kW and throttled after 3 minutes.
He had another charging session earlier in the day where he went from 4% to past 80%. It took awhile to ramp up when he first plugged in but the slice of the session from 10% to 80% was 42 minutes.

Gotta hand it to Ford, they're pretty consistent on the timing.
 

ajmartineau

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He had another charging session earlier in the day where he went from 4% to past 80%. It took awhile to ramp up when he first plugged in but the slice of the session from 10% to 80% was 42 minutes.

Gotta hand it to Ford, they're pretty consistent on the timing.
Ford sure nailed the timing of it. I think we all see that it could do more but doesn't. Maybe that's the "problem." When I see Tom plugin at 43% and get 150kW, I want the MME to hold near that 150kW from 5% all the way to 43%. If it did, it would be a road trip beast.

 

Woeo

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The generally accepted principle by all experienced BEV road trippers is that to make the best time you cap DCFC charging at 80% or less unless you can't make it to the next charger. I learned that within a few weeks of joining here and doing research, watching videos, etc. Plan a trip with any BEV in ABRP, and you will see that it follows the same philosophy of optimizing time for an extra stop or 2 along your route. Bjorn is atypical in that respect. Watch any of @OutofSpecKyle's videos in any car and you'll see that's how he does it. The same goes for just about any of the other road trippers I've seen.

If you're looking for a reason to complain/not get the car, then by all means focus on the DCFC charging speed above 80% and don't get a Mach E. If you're on the fence about it, be aware that every BEV manufacturer that can do OTA tweaks the charging curve as they get more data.
Using Kyle as the example, there are times when he has needed to charge above 80% on the road.
 

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