BlueCruise Hands Free vs. Hands On

[Mach-Lee]

What is your source for this information?

Mobileye and service manual. Hands-free requires detailed map data. There a bunch of articles about it or you can watch Mobileye presentations where the engineers talk about it.

https://www.mobileye.com/blog/the-why-and-how-of-making-hd-maps-for-automated-vehicles/

Ford isn’t crowdsourcing the map data yet, they get it from HERE mapping.

Sponsored

 

[Mirak]

Mobileye and service manual. Hands-free requires detailed map data. There a bunch of articles about it or you can watch Mobileye presentations where the engineers talk about it.

https://www.mobileye.com/blog/the-why-and-how-of-making-hd-maps-for-automated-vehicles/

Ford isn’t crowdsourcing the map data yet, they get it from HERE mapping.

Neat! So, again, where is the documentation that Ford BlueCruise incorporates map data into enhancing the accuracy of LC? A MobileEye white paper on a product offering is not the same thing. Saying that detailed map data is necessary for hands-free is not evidence that it is necessary for anything except a geofence. A cite to any Ford source that map data is used to enhance the accuracy of lane centering would be appreciated. Anything else is speculation.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Neat! So, again, where is the documentation that Ford BlueCruise incorporates map data into enhancing the accuracy of LC? A MobileEye white paper on a product offering is not the same thing. Saying that detailed map data is necessary for hands-free is not evidence that it is necessary for anything except a geofence. A cite to any Ford source that map data is used to enhance the accuracy of lane centering would be appreciated. Anything else is speculation.

Not everything is publicly documented. That doesn't mean it's total speculation. We know the high-res map data is required for HF BlueCruise. They talked about LIDAR scanning roads for it. Why would they bother with LIDAR if it's just a simple geofence? They need the geometry data to improve the lane centering to a level that's safe enough for hands-free use.

 

[AjzRide]

There is a difference. Hands On drive-assist works based on the image only, BlueCruise works based on both image and up to date HD map, obtained from Ford. Therefore BC works on two independent redundant pieces of information, which makes it more reliable.

This is absolutely false. I have the canbus data to prove the only thing the HD Map does is turns off checking for hands on the wheel. It's also my biggest gripe with BlueCruise. It should be so much more than hands of lane centering, but it's not and 1.3 isn't much of a step in the right direction.

 

[AjzRide]

Not everything is publicly documented. That doesn't mean it's total speculation. We know the high-res map data is required for HF BlueCruise. They talked about LIDAR scanning roads for it. Why would they bother with LIDAR if it's just a simple geofence? They need the geometry data to improve the lane centering to a level that's safe enough for hands-free use.

Maybe one day, but not yet. I'll be happy to share the cabana files with you showing a route on BC and the exact same route on hands on, and you can see its the exact same logic. Furthermore, you can watch the curvature, path, and offset in the IPMA, and see them go directly to the PSCM, with nothing in-between modifying them.

 

[Mirak]

Not everything is publicly documented. That doesn't mean it's total speculation. We know the high-res map data is required for HF BlueCruise. They talked about LIDAR scanning roads for it. Why would they bother with LIDAR if it's just a simple geofence? They need the geometry data to improve the lane centering to a level that's safe enough for hands-free use.

I didn’t ask for everything to be publicly documented. I asked for at least one public acknowledgment from Ford. And Ford has been conspicuously lacking in detail.

I know for a fact that I’ve been driving on frontage roads that somehow slipped inside the BC geofence. So much for high res mapping. Granted, I’m only on 1.0, but I still see zero evidence that 1.2 or 1.3 is incorporating mapping data to enhance the accuracy of LC.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Maybe one day, but not yet. I'll be happy to share the cabana files with you showing a route on BC and the exact same route on hands on, and you can see its the exact same logic. Furthermore, you can watch the curvature, path, and offset in the IPMA, and see them go directly to the PSCM, with nothing in-between modifying them.

It may be using the same map-correlated steering logic regardless of the current HF setting. You would almost have to disable or block GPS to eliminate map data from the equation to scientifically test the difference in guidance.

 

[AjzRide]

It may be using the same map-correlated steering logic regardless of the current HF setting. You would almost have to disable or block GPS to eliminate map data from the equation to scientifically test the difference in guidance.

My suspicions are as follows:

• LIDAR mapping is for the model Ford develops and pushes in the power up packages (OTA/FDRS), which currently is the same model for hands free and hands on. The IPMA for the MME and F150 is about 4x as big as the Maverick and Escape, but still no where near big enough to store lidar mapping for the blue cruise map. It's possible that the data is fed based on current location, but there are quite a few people watching the data transmitted over wifi and LTE, and we aren't seeing near enough data moving to suggest that is happening.
• The hi-def GPS is used for the geofence. regular GPS would have trouble knowing if you were in the exit lane or right lane, and BC know really quick and cuts over to hands-on if you hit the exit lane.
• The IPMA being much bigger than the non CANFD models suggest it can handle a much more complicated model than the other cars, although from what we see on the canbus so far, it looks very similar. I think they are anticipating more complicated models in the future.
• I am still very convinced by the data that currently hands on and hands off are exactly the same except checking for the hands on resistance. It could certainly change in the future, but from what I have seen from BC 1.2 ands 1.3 data I have access to, I think it will be 2.0 at least before we see anything significant.

 

[Mach-Lee]

My suspicions are as follows:

• LIDAR mapping is for the model Ford develops and pushes in the power up packages (OTA/FDRS), which currently is the same model for hands free and hands on. The IPMA for the MME and F150 is about 4x as big as the Maverick and Escape, but still no where near big enough to store lidar mapping for the blue cruise map. It's possible that the data is fed based on current location, but there are quite a few people watching the data transmitted over wifi and LTE, and we aren't seeing near enough data moving to suggest that is happening.
• The hi-def GPS is used for the geofence. regular GPS would have trouble knowing if you were in the exit lane or right lane, and BC know really quick and cuts over to hands-on if you hit the exit lane.
• The IPMA being much bigger than the non CANFD models suggest it can handle a much more complicated model than the other cars, although from what we see on the canbus so far, it looks very similar. I think they are anticipating more complicated models in the future.
• I am still very convinced by the data that currently hands on and hands off are exactly the same except checking for the hands on resistance. It could certainly change in the future, but from what I have seen from BC 1.2 ands 1.3 data I have access to, I think it will be 2.0 at least before we see anything significant.

The LIDAR data isn't being stored in raw form, it's simplified to precise lane data by the map provider. Basically if you zoom way in on the nav screen you can see individual lanes. That's the data it uses. Specific characteristics of lanes such as types, lines, widths, markings, boundaries, access characteristics, stop areas, raised surfaces, and speed limits. I think we can agree BlueCruise knows what lane you're in. Based on the map, it knows what lane markings to expect, where, and what shape they will be. The IPMA fuses this lane vector data (which is tiny amount of data per mile due to vector compression) with what it actually sees. The map data is loaded into the GWM periodically behind the scenes (without an OTA that shows up) and I assume fed into the IPMA based on location. It probably downloads one grid square at a time to cover the area you're in.

You're looking at data on the buses, but I'm saying this map fusion stuff is all happening internally in the IPMA so you're not going to see signs of it on the CAN bus traffic. You're just seeing the steering corrections it spits out, all the complicated stuff happens inside it. Because of that, we don't know if it's using the map data or not at any given time. All the driving policy decisions are made inside the IPMA, so it will take input of your hand status and driver monitoring status to decide if conditions are met for hands-free operation.

I agree the lane centering stack is pretty much the same deal whether or not you're in hands-free mode. But if your BC subscription expires, the high-res map data goes away, and the lane centering performance on interstates might get worse since it no longer has the lane vector data augment. It's vision-only at that point.

 

[Rt1AWD]

This is absolutely false. I have the canbus data to prove the only thing the HD Map does is turns off checking for hands on the wheel. It's also my biggest gripe with BlueCruise. It should be so much more than hands of lane centering, but it's not and 1.3 isn't much of a step in the right direction.

That's lame. I thought that the idea is to eliminate mistakes by the redundancy of two independent data sources needed for lane centering.

 

[Mach1E]

The LIDAR data isn't being stored in raw form, it's simplified to precise lane data by the map provider. Basically if you zoom way in on the nav screen you can see individual lanes. That's the data it uses. Specific characteristics of lanes such as types, lines, widths, markings, boundaries, access characteristics, stop areas, raised surfaces, and speed limits. I think we can agree BlueCruise knows what lane you're in. Based on the map, it knows what lane markings to expect, where, and what shape they will be. The IPMA fuses this lane vector data (which is tiny amount of data per mile due to vector compression) with what it actually sees. The map data is loaded into the GWM periodically behind the scenes (without an OTA that shows up) and I assume fed into the IPMA based on location. It probably downloads one grid square at a time to cover the area you're in.

You're looking at data on the buses, but I'm saying this map fusion stuff is all happening internally in the IPMA so you're not going to see signs of it on the CAN bus traffic. You're just seeing the steering corrections it spits out, all the complicated stuff happens inside it. Because of that, we don't know if it's using the map data or not at any given time. All the driving policy decisions are made inside the IPMA, so it will take input of your hand status and driver monitoring status to decide if conditions are met for hands-free operation.

I agree the lane centering stack is pretty much the same deal whether or not you're in hands-free mode. But if your BC subscription expires, the high-res map data goes away, and the lane centering performance on interstates might get worse since it no longer has the lane vector data augment. It's vision-only at that point.

That’s interesting, but I honestly hope it’s not true.

I would prefer the car only uses live, real time data to make decisions (markers on the road).

It would scare me to think that anything either coming through GPS or data stored somehow with the car would in any way affect the live actions of the steering wheel.

I just don’t see how our car could be smart enough or react quickly enough to anything other than current live real time data.

 

[AjzRide]

I just don’t see how our car could be smart enough or react quickly enough to anything other than current live real time data.

In theory it should be like this:

A) BlueCruise with extra map data is like driving down the road from your office (for the last 20 years) to your house. You know every curve, every pothole, every blind turn.. but you still adjust to unusual situations such as a car on the side of the road with a flat or a dog running out in front of you.

B) A vision only system would be like driving down a brand new road with no streetlights in the middle of the night, you only see what is right in front of you and you have no idea what is coming.

I think we would all prefer scenario A over B, which is what Mach-Lee is describing BC to be.

 

[AjzRide]

I agree the lane centering stack is pretty much the same deal whether or not you're in hands-free mode. But if your BC subscription expires, the high-res map data goes away, and the lane centering performance on interstates might get worse since it no longer has the lane vector data augment. It's vision-only at that point.

It will be interesting to see if this happens. Since no one has expired yet we don't know (unless you have inside information) if the map resolution data will disappear, just stop updating, or keep coming.

 

[Mach1E]

In theory it should be like this:

A) BlueCruise with extra map data is like driving down the road from your office (for the last 20 years) to your house. You know every curve, every pothole, every blind turn.. but you still adjust to unusual situations such as a car on the side of the road with a flat or a dog running out in front of you.

B) A vision only system would be like driving down a brand new road with no streetlights in the middle of the night, you only see what is right in front of you and you have no idea what is coming.

I think we would all prefer scenario A over B, which is what Mach-Lee is describing BC to be.

I just feel like scenario A is an impossible amount of data to have as well as interpret in real time traveling 80 mph down a 5 lane highway with construction zones etc.

Especially considering our processor speeds in the car.

I don’t know how it works exactly, but it seems like the BC highways are just more a geo-fence.

Lane keeping is visual only (we already know this) because it works everywhere.

If it truly does use more than just visual data with BC, the results aren’t apparent because full BC doesn’t seem to drive any better than just lane keeping with intelligent cruise.

 

[AjzRide]

I just feel like scenario A is an impossible amount of data to have as well as interpret in real time traveling 80 mph down a 5 lane highway with construction zones etc.

The point is, it can always fall back to vision only if anything doesn't match it's known data.

If it truly does use more than just visual data with BC, the results aren’t apparent because full BC doesn’t seem to drive any better than just lane keeping with intelligent cruise.

This is my assessment as well. Mach-Lee seems convinced it's using enhanced lane data from the maps, but I haven't see any improvement in lane keeping in blue cruise zones versus non-BC zones.

Either way I think we all agree that currently BC and LCA are using the exact same model with a geofence to turn on hands on/off. This may change in the future to give BC a justifiable advantage for the cost.

Sponsored