Sweetwater

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It looks like that was an old article that was recently updated based on the "last updated" date. While it had some good points when it was originally published and some are probably still true, I don't think it stands up too well to where we are now with Tesla. I'll let the actual Tesla owners weigh in, but I do think this article is too negative for what we know today about the Model 3 and the new Model Y.
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Billyk24

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Those on the Rivian forum are stating this brand will arrive with the ability to have 800 v wiring to ensure faster than usual L3 charging speeds. Like what Porsche has done. No one has the vehicle to independently test for such.
 

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  1. 1 Tesla Model 3 doesn't go far enough. ...
  2. 2 Reliability is the most important factor. ...
  3. 3 Tesla Model 3 is a waste of your money. ...
  4. 4 Either EVs are over or they're getting much better. ...
  5. 5 Good luck selling a used Model 3.
I've got issues with my Model 3 which is why I'm getting a Mach-E but all of the above are wrong.

Let's start at No. 5 since that pretty much takes the rest of them down with it.

I paid $52k for LR AWD Model 3 Red 310. I have 20,000 miles on it. May 16 it will year old.

KBB.com says my sale price based on "Good Condition" is $46,534. 12% depreciation in one year with twice normal miles on it. $48k if in "Excellent Condition" which mine is with full nose and rocker cover PPF, tinted windows, spoiler, wrapped Aero wheel covers. 8% depreciation.

I got $6k in Federal and state rebates so I would get more than I paid for it.

The market says it's a good buy.
 
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dbsb3233

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Telsa Model 3 charges at 250kWh. That's 1,000 miles an hour charging. Tesla ramps down to 175kWh at 30% charge, that's 700 mph. Taycan battery, 94kWh doesn't start ramp down until 55%

Taycan's 94kWh battery for example,

"The stated “5 to 80% in 22.5 minutes” recharge time can only be explained if the Taycan manages to keep the 270 kW up for at least half the charging cycle."

Rivian's 180 kWh battery based on currently available 350kWh public chargers, 45 minutes to 80%.

So every 300 miles a 45 minute charge.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/0...o-charge-than-tesla-model-s-most-of-the-time/
"That's 1,000 miles an hour charging" is grossly misleading. It doesn't stay anywhere close to that for an hour. That's just the short-term peak. And even that assumes 4 miles per kWh efficiency which is being generous, especially if you attempt to translate that to a bigger/heavier vehicle. That 400 mile Rivian with the 180 kWh battery comes in at 2.2 miles per kWh (maybe 2.4 if we assume some reserve held back).

I get that everyone wishes all new BEVs had a super long charging curve at max power, but the reality is very few do. Including (from all indications) the Mach-e. Not sure if anyone knows about the Rivian's curve yet.

And actually my "forever to charge" point was as much about home L2 charging as it was expensive L3. Although L2 at 50A isn't quite as bad as I thought. Looks like it adds 22 miles/hr, so 13 hours to do a 10-80% charge.
 

LYTMCQ

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"That's 1,000 miles an hour charging" is grossly misleading.
Only if you stopped reading there. I posted the charging curves and noted the ramp down and included the net charging times based on ramp down.

Based on my exclusive usage of public chargers for Model 3, I find 45 minutes for a 300 mile charge on a Rivian excellent.

And actually my "forever to charge" point was as much about home L2 charging as it was expensive L3.
L2 max is 20kWh an hour. 180kWh battery would be 9 hours for 400 mile charge. Is that "forever"?
 

dbsb3233

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Yes, you followed up with it dropping, which is fine. But the way you worded it first is what I found very misleading. It's not "1,000 miles an hour charging". An hour charging means charging for an hour. It doesn't stay at 250 kW for an hour (or even close). Or add 1000 miles in an hour.

Chargers on a 50A circuit will typically max out around 40A to be safe. 40A x 240V = 9.6 kW. Which is consistent with what this shows:

https://evcompare.io/cars/rivian/rivian_r1t_180_kwh/charging/

They show that on a 50A circuit (the max that most people would add to their home garage), vehicle uptake is 9.9 kW. (It also says the onboard charger max is 11 kW). Which calculates to almost 13 hours to charge 10-80% on the largest battery Rivian (as I noted in my last reply).
 

LYTMCQ

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It's not "1,000 miles an hour charging".
It is until the car's battery ramp down. Porsche's and Model 3's are on the road examples. I posted the curves.

They show that on a 50A circuit (the max that most people would add to their home garage), vehicle uptake is 9.9 kW. (It also says the onboard charger max is 11 kW). Which calculates to almost 13 hours to charge 10-80% on the largest battery Rivian
At home, at night, sounds perfect to me. Do you find that "unreasonable" which is how you described it?

And in practice, you aren't driving 300 miles a day, 109,500 a year so your evening charge is going to done easily overnight for a Rivian 180kWh battery

Here's a practical example:

"When we bought our Tesla Roadster, we got the high-power 16.8 kW Level 2 charging station, which can charge the car in 3.5 hours. After driving the car for a few months, I realized it’s all but pointless to have such a big charging station in our garage. It’s rare that I drive over 40 miles in a day. The 16.8 kW charging station can restore 40 miles in under 40 minutes."

https://pluginamerica.org/understanding-electric-vehicle-charging/

A Ford-150E with a similar 180kWh/400 mile range battery would as well as an ICE F-150.
 

dbsb3233

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You're not understanding what I'm saying. "An hour charging" suggests an actual hour of charging (at 250 kW). That's what's misleading. In reality it's less than a third of 250 kW that you get when charging for an hour. (And similarly, less than a third of that 1000 miles that sounded far more impressive than it is.)

I know you really meant 16.6 miles per minute for only the first slice of an hour (before it tapers down), but the way you worded it makes it sound like charging for an actual hour.

Regarding the overnight charge that I initially described as "taking forever", I followed that up with "not as bad as I thought" after doing the math. 13 hours (for a 70% charge) isn't too bad. That's pretty close to a normal amount of time someone would spend at home between workday commute driving.
 

HopefulAl

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Can you expand a bit on your experience, please? How often or how painfully did owning/operating a daily driver EV with ~230 mile range prove problematic for you?
My daily commute was not a problem. I loved the car. The problem was longer trips and range anxiety plus time to charge on the road. There are some "hidden" minuses with regard to any car's stated range. For instance a 230 mile EPA range might really be only 210 range...so take off 20 miles of range on a normal day. Also, it is stated best practices to not charge your battery higher than 90% unless you are going on a trip. This preserves the life of the battery and its "top end" charging limit....so, take of 10% x 230...or 23 miles of range on a normal day. When you are driving you have to keep a reserve number of miles, so that you do not run out. That reserve is variable depending if you are near home or near a charger. Let's say it is 30 miles. So; 230 - 20 - 23 - 30 = 157 miles of normal range. That can be impacted by how hot (better) or how cold (worse) the temperature is that day. This is why I am getting a long range. If they had 400 miles, then I would get it.
 

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"An hour charging" suggests an actual hour of charging (at 250 kW) is misleading.
Not really. It is simply an expression of what is going on. A charge rate of 250kwh is 1,000 mph. It is your peak charging rate which cars can maintain up 33% charge (Model 3) or 50% of charge (Porsche).

33% of charge in Model 3 is 100 miles of charge. I can get 100 miles of charge at 250kWh in six minutes. That beats the gas station. It is an actual charging rate of 1,000 mph.

For somebody like me with no home charging, a legit strategy is hit the 250kWh charger for 5 minutes, get 100 miles. That capability is there.

Practical example. I park car with 86 miles. Plenty to get to work (52 miles) and get charge after work. It gets cold. I leave the house it says 46 miles miles, I have to go 70 mph to make work on time so now it's 35 miles. I'm not going to make it. I have time for 5 minute stop and 100 miles.

To this topic of the Rivian or F-150E with 400 mile range. That 5 minute charge is 132 miles of range.

It works.
 

LYTMCQ

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Can you expand a bit on your experience, please? How often or how painfully did owning/operating a daily driver EV with ~230 mile range prove problematic for you?
Since you only want to charge to 85% top and 10% bottom for battery health, day to day we live on 75% of rated range. My 310 rated Tesla is really a 232 range EV for day to day. This is true for all EV's including Mach-E.

Cold can knock that down 25% so the 310 rated EV is a 174 rated EV in Winter.

For people with home charging, that is not really a big issue day to day unless with average commute of 50 miles a day.

For people like myself with no home charging and commutes of 100 miles, it requires more time and effort.

In Winter I've had to charge every day at the SC as not enough to go work, come home and get to work again. I can get up 30 minutes earlier and charge or hit the charger for 30 minutes on the way home every day (that's what I do).

That might not work for a lot of people.

Bottom line, put all your money into as much range as you can get.
 
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