Breaking News from Norway-increased charging speed/capacity and range of vehicle

timbop

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Yes, this is a rehashed article from when they announced the 61 miles in 10 minutes. We all know that.
However, just for jiggles.
Model X LR+ EPA 351, WLTP 315
Model Y Perf. EPA 315, WLTP 298
Model Y LR AWD EPA 316, WLTP 314
Model S LR+ EPA 391, WLTP 379
etc.
How does Tesla get such high EPA numbers?
where'd you get that list? The EPA/WLTP look transposed to my eyes
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timbop

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timbop

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ajmartineau

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WOW, that article was very timely. It's like they are taping my phone.

Soap Box...
Legacy Automakers need to convince us that range and zero-60 are not important. They have been doing this for years with ICE cars. Things like mpg, hp, the capacity of the fuel tank aren't what most people look at when buying a car. We look at style, color, comfort, prestige, quality, brand loyalty, PRICE, etc. That's what they should be telling us what we need with a BEV. Tesla is in control of the conversation and I think it's hurting all EVs.

Example.
When Cadilac released there latest ICE SUV, nobody said how crappy it was because it got 18mpg instead of 27mpg like the Toyota(made up numbers). Now think about how their new Lyriq EV. It's not the car that failed (#does anyone like the Lyriq?), it's GM's marketing department. IMO
 

dbsb3233

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WOW, that article was very timely. It's like they are taping my phone.

Soap Box...
Legacy Automakers need to convince us that range and zero-60 are not important. They have been doing this for years with ICE cars. Things like mpg, hp, the capacity of the fuel tank aren't what most people look at when buying a car. We look at style, color, comfort, prestige, quality, brand loyalty, PRICE, etc. That's what they should be telling us what we need with a BEV. Tesla is in control of the conversation and I think it's hurting all EVs.

Example.
When Cadilac released there latest ICE SUV, nobody said how crappy it was because it got 18mpg instead of 27mpg like the Toyota(made up numbers). Now think about how their new Lyriq EV. It's not the car that failed (#does anyone like the Lyriq?), it's GM's marketing department. IMO
Yes, but...

You're right that range is irrelevant for ICE. And MPG is mostly irrelevant, except for one purpose: fuel cost. That's really the only reason 95% of buyers care at all about MPG.

However, just because range (and MPG) is mostly irrelevant for ICE doesn't mean it's not EXTREMELY relevant for BEVs. And the reason is that ease and time (and even price) of retail refueling is dramatically different between the two.

Refueling is a virtual non-issue for ICE. There's stations everywhere and it takes 3 minutes. Easy peasy and consistent for everyone. But it's just the opposite with retail charging of a BEV. Home charging is WONDERFUL, but retail charging is a huge drawback. It's very slow, it's often hard to find and less dependable, and it's often double the price of gas (EA, anyway).
 

dbsb3233

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This still just drives me up the frickin` wall:

"This procedure uses the same EPA city cycle (20-mph average speed over 7.5 miles with 18 stops) and highway cycle (48-mph average speed, 10.3 miles) used for fuel-economy tests of all light-duty vehicles."

48-mph highway cycle? Seriously?!? Have these people never driven a highway in their lifetimes???
 

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Exactly, they have convinced you also! I know that range isn't that important (obviously it has some importance). One of my EVs has an 87 mile EPA range, but it's that nicest car I'm ever owned. If I drove 749 miles every weekend then range would be important to me, but don't, so it's not.

On a side note, it seems that most of your posts (dbsb) that follow mine start with "Yes, but..." or "Yes, except..." I think I'm going to take a break from trying to Add to the knowledge of the potential new BEV owners here and let people figure out there own answers.
 

timbop

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This still just drives me up the frickin` wall:

"This procedure uses the same EPA city cycle (20-mph average speed over 7.5 miles with 18 stops) and highway cycle (48-mph average speed, 10.3 miles) used for fuel-economy tests of all light-duty vehicles."

48-mph highway cycle? Seriously?!? Have these people never driven a highway in their lifetimes???
Pure speculation, but my guess is that decision was made long ago when 55mph was the law of the land. Then, as with all legacy-biased decisions it was kept to keep consistency when comparing "last years' cars". It's the same logic behind the QWERTY keyboard still being the standard, the US avoiding the metric system, or the left side driving in Britain and all her former colonies: "let's just keep doing it that way because we're used to it".
 

dbsb3233

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Exactly, they have convinced you also! I know that range isn't that important (obviously it has some importance). One of my EVs has an 87 mile EPA range, but it's that nicest car I'm ever owned. If I drove 749 miles every weekend then range would be important to me, but don't, so it's not.

On a side note, it seems that most of your posts (dbsb) that follow mine start with "Yes, but..." or "Yes, except..." I think I'm going to take a break from trying to Add to the knowledge of the potential new BEV owners here and let people figure out there own answers.
"Yes but/except" just means we're BOTH adding points to the discussion. There's pros and cons to everything, advantages and disadvantages, positives and negatives. To get a fair assessment of something, it takes exploration of both, not just the positives.

You brought up some valid and positive aspects. That's great. There's also some downsides to, which I added. Both entirely valid. No reason to shy away from adding either or both.

I'm simply trying to discuss all aspects, pro and con. Usually it's not even disagreement, just more of the picture. Sorry if you took it differently. That wasn't my intent.
 

timbop

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On a side note, it seems that most of your posts (dbsb) that follow mine start with "Yes, but..." or "Yes, except..." I think I'm going to take a break from trying to Add to the knowledge of the potential new BEV owners here and let people figure out there own answers.
Please don't take it personally. So far everyone is being civil, and honest discussions from different viewpoints are a potential for everyone to understand. Sometimes that doesn't happen, but what you don't see is the silent viewers who follow the conversation and learn from it. It's not necessary to get "likes" to know you've been heard.

Respectful debate is far too rare in today's world, when it happens we should preserve it. Echo chambers and silencing dissent are counterproductive.
 

dbsb3233

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Please don't take it personally. So far everyone is being civil, and honest discussions from different viewpoints are a potential for everyone to understand. Sometimes that doesn't happen, but what you don't see is the silent viewers who follow the conversation and learn from it. It's not necessary to get "likes" to know you've been heard.

Respectful debate is far too rare in today's world, when it happens we should preserve it. Echo chambers and silencing dissent are counterproductive.
I'll take some responsibility for some of my posts probably coming off a bit too strong, and being overly persistent.

It's not the only place I post and sometimes I don't get the gears fully shifted from other places that are less civil than this one when I'm making a point. It's one of the things I truly appreciate about these forums -- they're nearly always civil and it feels very much like a discussion between friends. That's rare online these days. And it's been a great hobby to occupy so much of the downtime in this crazy year.

My apologies to Arthur if I come on a bit too strong in some replies.
 

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Pure speculation, but my guess is that decision was made long ago when 55mph was the law of the land. Then, as with all legacy-biased decisions it was kept to keep consistency when comparing "last years' cars". It's the same logic behind the QWERTY keyboard still being the standard, the US avoiding the metric system, or the left side driving in Britain and all her former colonies: "let's just keep doing it that way because we're used to it".
Even taking legacy 55mph into account then the test really should be at 55mph, 48mph for a highway is ridiculous, sure I have to crawl along during the commute on my way home, but once past the normal congestion points even with still quite heavy traffic you are moving at 55-60 mph.

The problem I have with 48 mph is it bares no reality to actual highway driving when you get out of the cities, I can't speak for all parts of the US but as the highways typically intersect cities rather than bypass them like you get in other parts of the world, they easily get clogged up with city traffic that wold normally be on the surface streets as people only use the highway to travel a short distance between entering and exiting and in some places the only way to get across town is to use the highway, which causes a lot of the congestion so 48mph is fine for this but it makes the current highway test little better than going down the surface streets without get caught by the lights.

Naturally the benefits of BEV being used in an urban environment are huge not just from an emissions perspective but also from the reduction in noise, adding additional destination chargers also becomes easier which can make it easier for those with off street parking a no access to home charging an opportunity to charger while going about daily business.

But people already know that a BEV in the city is perfect the issue is when people decided to take a long journey when the expected 300 mile range suddenly becomes 200 miles and what would have been 1 stop becomes 2, if you search youtube you will find real world examples of how a long journey ends up taking longer than expected as the actual highway range falls way short of the predicted , however these real world examples are few and far between compared to all the fluff pieces glossing over this fact or how supposedly everyone is incapable of driving for more than a few miles before needing a bathroom break.

Which is why the to me the epa highway estimate needs to be based on the reality of actually being out on the highway at 70+mph without the need to slow down so very little if any regen, it is never going to account for all real world differences but it needs to be a lot better, if your ICE highway mpg is supposed to be 35mpg and you get 34mpg the inconvenience is a lot less of an issue
 

dbsb3233

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Which is why the to me the epa highway estimate needs to be based on the reality of actually being out on the highway at 70+mph without the need to slow down so very little if any regen, it is never going to account for all real world differences but it needs to be a lot better, if your ICE highway mpg is supposed to be 35mpg and you get 34mpg the inconvenience is a lot less of an issue
I couldn't agree more. To me, what good is a stat if it's not useful at really telling you something? 48 MPH highway tells us virtually nothing, even for ICE. It's too slow for most highway driving and too fast for most city driving.

And it's really worse than that since the MPG number most touted is the combined city/highway number, which lowers the average speed even further. I assume that's what BEV "range" is based on.

Now, in fairness to the EPA, there's usually not a big difference between city and highway MPG in most ICE vehicles anyway. So there hasn't been a lot of need to "fix" them. Any change in methodology comes with ramifications. And for ICE, MPG isn't really a very big deal for consumers anyway.

What I wish the EPA would do is simply add a pure high speed (70 MPH) range stat for BEVs only. That's WAY more meaningful to consumers than MPGe anyway. Basing range on lower speed like they do is not very helpful at all.
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