littlD

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SWO

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I wonder if Tesla owners are going to be dicks about this when supercharging next to them.
Guaranteed if they put dual plugs on chargers. They'll hate MachE's in particular since Superchargers aren't configured to plug in front-driver's side.
 

SWO

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Tesla will not open the SC network up anytime soon*

Tesla has already attempted to create CCS SC with state governments, but their chargers were too inexpensive to comply with the grant requirements (Tesla supercharger per unit installed costs are 1/5th the price of any competitor, as per https://insideevs.com/news/580505/tesla-supercharger/ ). The way I see it is; Tesla is too efficient in this space as it stands. Between Buffalo and Shanghai, they can manufacture more than 20,000 superchargers a year (I am amused Tesla will manufacture more supercharger in 2022 than Rivian will manufacture vehicles).

If Tesla were to win grants, only net-new superchargers "in this program" will get CCS. It is very unlikely that Tesla would use the funds to retrofit existing Superchargers.

If Texas is a sign of what is to come with government involvement; Tesla will be denied the grants because they are not financially wasteful enough.

In all seriousness; this exemplifies the economies of scale that Tesla has. No DCFC brand is on the level that Tesla is. Every EA DCFC is made by an OEM in China. It might be a good thing for competition, if Tesla were not further enabled to scale their operations. If they already are 1/5th cheaper, how are the Chinese made EA DCFC ever going to be cheaper than the American made Tesla Supercharger?
1. People are reading way too much into what was basically a table on a government website. Nobody has seen Tesla's proposal that I know of. Their application was likely denied because it didn't meet the requirements..ie, they were asking for money to install their proprietary plugs.

2. Tesla has all the motivation to open up their network. It's a chance for them to stop losing money on it.
 

SWO

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Tesla is under appreciated. Ford won't even manufacture the Mach-E in USA, won't even build a DCFC. I can appreciate the Blue Angels program, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to what Tesla has done.

Tesla is...

  • Dealing with city/township permitting process and easements
  • Dealing with power purchase agreements and local utilities
  • Securing land
  • Working with local electricians to wire the locations
  • Working with local cement companies and contractors to repave the lots
  • Manufacturing the superchargers themselves
  • Maintaining the actual superchargers

If every auto company was just half as committed as Tesla, we'd all be better off.

It is really amazing that Tesla has shown the commitment that they have (to the supercharger network). It is well maintained and sets a standard.

As to not cause more congestion, I don't think existing SC will get CCS for a long time. I think Tesla will try and start net-new CCS network on top of the SC network, with the CCS network filling gaps in the SC network, and Tesla to CCS adapter being made available in North America
Tesla has done a lot. They sell high-margin (expensive) cars. Those margins help pay for their proprietary network, but (like in Europe) it has no future and the sooner they move to CCS, the better.
 

HeyMomTheMeatloaf

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The Tesla Texas SC grant was for a CCS Supercharger network in Texas. It was going to be the first instance of Tesla doing this in North America. InsideEV’s is quoting Forbes; which seems like a pretty good source.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradte...for-texas-but-reveals-teslas-super-low-costs/

Tesla is obviously very incentivized to be able to provide fast, affordable (for consumers, and the actual chargers themselves) chargers. IMO, legacy auto companies need to do what Tesla has done.

E.G. - the cost of a single outlet Tesla destination charger is $500 (before install costs). A (popular) dual J1772 outlet commercial charger costs $7500 (ChargePoint CT-4000 series), while more obscure models (Bosch) can come in around $3800.

GM/Stellantis/Ford need to help to help lower the cost of DCFC and L2 chargers. I am of the opinion that they can make this happen by building their own chargers, right in USA, just like Tesla.

I still believe this article reveals that the per unit, all-in (installed) cost of a supercharger is a fraction of the cost of a DCFC. Keep in mind, the $30k price tag is for a 250kW charger, too (not a 62.5kW or 150kW charger).

1. People are reading way too much into what was basically a table on a government website. Nobody has seen Tesla's proposal that I know of. Their application was likely denied because it didn't meet the requirements..ie, they were asking for money to install their proprietary plugs.

2. Tesla has all the motivation to open up their network. It's a chance for them to stop losing money on it.
 


HeyMomTheMeatloaf

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I am not so sure about Tesla paint quality (or any issues) issues in 2022.. These seem to be a relic of the past. Rivian is the brand in the hot seat now, with respect to releasing EV’s with substandard paint. Tesla owners (and car reviewers) are all very surprised and impressed by the very noticeable improvements in fit, finish and quality of even a 2022 Tesla vs. a 2021 Tesla.

Discussions about build quality aside; I agree that Ford (and all the legacy auto companies) should really consider installing public DCFC at their dealerships. There are already some dealers (not necessarily Ford dealers) that have public DCFC installed.

There are a few things that make a dealership an ideal place for DCFC;
  • Power is already ran. Dealership lots have flood lights installed, so power criss cross all over the lot
  • Flood lights offer a sense of safety and security. DCFC/SC are often tucked in corners of a parking lot. Single women, for instance, often mention how this is an issue in their long term EV ownership reviews
  • Dealership lots have cameras installed. This adds to the sense of security
  • Ford dealerships exist practically everywhere that a EV owner will find themselves (Regardless of the brand of vehicle they own)
  • Ford dealerships are often located near other amenities (restaurants, shopping, gyms, etc)
  • Ford dealers could use the DCFC to charge the cars for sale. Which is to say; all dealers are already installing (at least) L2 J1772 chargers, so they might as well just install public DCFC. With a DCFC, they can charge their own vehicles, get subsidies for the install (since it will be for public use), and eliminate range anxiety for EV owners. Heck - Ford dealers could even sweeten the pot by offering free DCFC at their dealership for life.
Tesla (clearly) has shown the competitive advantages that vertical integration offers. Just this week; Tesla is supposedly looking at getting in the mining business. How wild is this? The rest of the auto industry is (too) comfortable with outsourcing key parts of the brand experience, and it doesn’t always help. E.G. - outsourcing everything to Magna, and then expecting Electrify America to provide the network their owners need.

Could be a bit of apples & oranges. Ford and others are car makers first, and have lots of other car lines to support. Not sure if they have considered using (some of) their locations as charge stops. Tesla has 4 models out, and still having paint quality issues? T's business model, product lines and priorities are just... different IMO.
 

SWO

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The Tesla Texas SC grant was for a CCS Supercharger network in Texas. It was going to be the first instance of Tesla doing this in North America. InsideEV’s is quoting Forbes; which seems like a pretty good source.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bradte...for-texas-but-reveals-teslas-super-low-costs/

Tesla is obviously very incentivized to be able to provide fast, affordable (for consumers, and the actual chargers themselves) chargers. IMO, legacy auto companies need to do what Tesla has done.

E.G. - the cost of a single outlet Tesla destination charger is $500 (before install costs). A (popular) dual J1772 outlet commercial charger costs $7500 (ChargePoint CT-4000 series), while more obscure models (Bosch) can come in around $3800.

GM/Stellantis/Ford need to help to help lower the cost of DCFC and L2 chargers. I am of the opinion that they can make this happen by building their own chargers, right in USA, just like Tesla.

I still believe this article reveals that the per unit, all-in (installed) cost of a supercharger is a fraction of the cost of a DCFC. Keep in mind, the $30k price tag is for a 250kW charger, too (not a 62.5kW or 150kW charger).
Yep I have read both articles when they came out. The only source is a table on a Texas Gov't website that was probably populated by some intern. Nowhere does it say that is the cost of a Tesla charger, it's just how much they are requesting per charger. Hell, it might only cover the cost of adding a CCS dongle to an existing charger. Forbes, InsideEvs, and you are reading way too much into it.

People won't like hearing this, but Ford is smart to not build a charging network because it's signing up to lose money. Nobody (including Tesla) is making money on fast charging, which is the real reason they are talking about opening up their network.

Screenshot_20220515-095045_Office~2.jpg
 

mkhuffman

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Just putting my votes in: I would pay for an adapter and pay a premium to use the Tesla Supercharger network. Non-Tesla DCFC networks are not sufficient for all the new EVs being sold.

I agree with those who have complimented Tesla's expansion and lead in the market. It is impressive, IMO.
 

voxel

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Just saw this created/posted in an ID.4 FB group

1652666181717.png


I wonder if Tesla SC per square mile coverage matches this.
 

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So.... sometime between Cybertruck deliveries and SpaceX's manned mission to Mars then.

I saw yesterday where they are getting ready to offer their semi-tractor....................soon.
 

Logal727

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So.... sometime between Cybertruck deliveries and SpaceX's manned mission to Mars then.

I saw yesterday where they are getting ready to offer their semi-tractor....................soon.
Nothing like good ol market manipulation
 

Mark IV

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So.... sometime between Cybertruck deliveries and SpaceX's manned mission to Mars then.
Ouch! Bazinga. But hey, Elon's mom is now a Sports Illustrated swimsuit cover model so.......

 

 
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