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Charging FAIL & GREAT Surprise When We Compare The Model Y & Mach-E On The World’s Toughest EV Test!

dbsb3233

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Yes they told us charging speed up to 80% (of 88 KWh) and have been up front about the 11% buffer grab. If they limit the dcfc to 80%, with its efficiency, it will be APOS and that will get out. I do not see that happening but have no facts either. I do not think you release a mustang with a major hardware problem and truly hope also to see the 80% road block disappear; to make this offering competitive to other EV's. A 100 KWh pack can change the dynamic (bit better in the e-tron class is possible as it is more efficient than the E-Tron). Guess it is the facts seen in reviews and the silence that gets us going. Two things only and possibly fixable to make it gr8? Charging with speed up to 90%, with the size of the buffer, will be a requirement for success (hope it is soon after launch). I for one do not want an EV mustang to be known as APOS. Possibly a management decision and it is good to go? Or is that OKTB. Have faith she is going to be good.
I'm way more interested in the 10-80% DCFC charging power than I am the 80%+ DCFC charging power. I may never DCFC charge over 80% for my entire ownership of the MME. Even if that stays at ~12 kW permanently, it's inconsequential for most people (although I recognize that some people might be in position to need it, and that tail end would take 2-4x longer than others). If I were in such a position, I'd be more concerned. But I'm not.

For the 10-80% charging power, I've seen just as many anecdotal examples of it meeting/exceeding the advertised rate as I have ones falling short, so I'm cautiously optimistic these were either preproduction issues, or charger issues. But it's certainly piqued my interest for something to watch closely when owners of real productions units start reporting.
 

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There isn't anything to "unlock" at that point. If the SR AWD car is showing that it can only hold enough of a charge to get 150 miles, then the cells are already limited to being able to hold a combined charge of 48.5 kwh. There isn't anything to "unlock", except perhaps the small amount at the bottom. Discharging a Li-ion cell too low can permanently destroy the cell, so it would be crazy to allow the car to use that cushion at the bottom.

HOWEVER, this is a very unlikely case. 10% is about the worst you should expect over the 8 years of ownership
I understand what you're saying now.

I really think that the buffer will slowly be released in order to maintain range at or near 100%.

8 years from now Ford wants to run commercials indicating that their cars "hold a higher percent of range than any other EV manufacturer".... or something like that.
 

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I'm way more interested in the 10-80% DCFC charging power than I am the 80%+ DCFC charging power. I may never DCFC charge over 80% for my entire ownership of the MME. Even if that stays at 12 kW permanently, it's inconsequential for most people (although I recognize that some people might be in position to needs it occasionally, and that tail end will take 2-4x longer). If I were in such a position, I'd be more concerned. But I'm not.

For the 10-80% charging power, I've seen just as many anecdotal examples of it meeting/exceeding the advertised rate than I have ones falling short, so I'm cautiously optimistic these were either preproduction issues, or charger issues. But it's certainly piqued by interest for something to watch closely when owners of real productions units start reporting.
To each his own; us and other northern locations need it in the -20 C range. With no heat pump if they flip the switch for 6 month that would be good. During the summer anything will be good to go; even with current charging infrastructure.

You have seen and read charging from Europe? Appears in the US there are some communication errors on some chargers; this will get fixed (better). I was wondering if Kyle reached out to Ford and what comments he got back on his problems.
 

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Gm does the same thing. Volt has a 19kwh battery. 15 is user accessible.

I'm sure tesla does it too. We just don't know how much is held in reserve.
No, that isn't true. Tesla makes available 100% of the battery to ace the EPA range. Then writes in fine prints that customers should only charge to 90% to prolong battery life. There was a recent article on Edmunds about this very issue. Here it is. This makes it real tricky. if someone has unusual degradation, it can be difficult to prove that he never charged over 90% and get the battery replaced or fixed.
https://www.usnews.com/news/lifesty...lectric-vehicle-ranges-vary-from-epa-estimate

MAX BATTERY USAGE
A key difference between Tesla and other companies is that it makes more of its battery available for use. Electric vehicle batteries that are constantly charged to their maximum capacity tend to degrade quicker over time, so manufacturers including Porsche place stricter limits on charging and use. Tesla leaves it up to the owner’s discretion and simply recommends that the max battery charge only be used for longer trips. Otherwise, it says owners should use a charge of around 90% for daily use.
The 90% charge is what Edmunds followed for its Model Y test as, again, it represents how the majority of Tesla drivers will use their car. Extrapolated out, Edmunds estimates that charging the Y’s battery to its maximum capacity would have added 25 miles to its as-tested range.
 
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dbsb3233

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To each his own; us and other northern locations need it in the -20 C range. With no heat pump if they flip the switch for 6 month that would be good. During the summer anything will be good to go; even with current charging infrastructure.

You have seen and read charging from Europe? Appears in the US there are some communication errors on some chargers; this will get fixed (better). I was wondering if Kyle reached out to Ford and what comments he got back on his problems.
Yeah, cold temps are another angle on all this. We don't know whether that might be the reason Tommy only got ~40 kW, or whether the charger was having issues, or whether it was just a preproduction quirk, or what. If it charges fine (say, 80-100 kW in the 35% area) at 20C but only 40 kW at -20C, that's gonna be a significant negative for many. But I don't think we can draw that conclusion yet.

I remember one video in Europe that showed a charging snapshot, and it was fine. Can't remember which one though (there's so many jammed into that one thread that it's hard to even find one you're looking for).

I betcha Ford is monitoring the respected reviewers to see their experiences. It's good feedback for them to work with.
 
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Maybe I can explain it better with a hypothetical example. The ER battery has 376 cells that collectively can hold a max charge of 99 kwh. That means an individual cell can hold a MAX of about 263 wh. Ford only lets you access the "middle" 230 wh. I am totally guessing, but assuming they prevent the cell from going below 10wh, that means the most charge that the car lets go into the cell would be 240wh. That means as the cell degrades to only be able to hold 240wh of 263wh it initially was capable of, you as a driver won't see a loss. As soon as the cell degrades to where it is no longer able to hold 240wh, you will start to see a decrease in range. At that point the only reserve is the bottom 10wh, which they would be ill advised to open up.
 
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Maybe I can explain it better with a hypothetical example. The ER battery has 376 cells that collectively can hold a max charge of 99 kwh. That means an individual cell can hold a MAX of about 263 wh. Ford only lets you access the "middle" 230 wh. I am totally guessing, but assuming they prevent the cell from going below 10wh, that means the most charge that the car lets go into the cell would be 240wh. That means as the cell degrades to only be able to hold 240wh of 263wh it initially was capable of, you as a driver won't see a loss. As soon as the cell degrades to where it is no longer able to hold 240wh, you will start to see a decrease in range. At that point the only reserve is the bottom 10wh, which they would be ill advised to open up.
Do all of the cells degrade uniformly?

If not, doesn't that mean that the capacity could decline below 70% but then if they opened up more capacity it could bump it back up?
 

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I betcha Ford is monitoring the respected reviewers to see their experiences. It's good feedback for them to work with.
Have to believe that Ford engineers or employees have used existing DC chargers at least 100,000 times. A random person using a random charger without a full understanding of what happened would not be very useful. What you would need to rule out is whether he used some unexpected sequence or something.

Getting the MME to work with DC chargers should be straightforward. It's a fixed target. You drive up. Plug in. And it works or doesn't work. My guess -- and it's a complete guess -- is that Ford changed the software on the MME but not on the specific MME he had. Ordinarily I'd think that EA hadn't upgraded these specific chargers, but he also reported not being able to charge with EvGo chargers. Obviously a handshake issue on chargers from multiple vendors would suggest the remedy in on the MME side of things.

Would be nice if someone who knew the particulars would weigh in and explain things. I'm unconcerned but I'm not a Nervous Nellie type of person.
 

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Thanks, that's informative. So a worst case 30% drop is quite significant, won't you say? I was guessing 10%.
Compared to @TFLtommy 's statement " much like other EV's on the market, the battery degradation is very minimal. ". No one will call a 30% degradation in 100k miles "very minimal". :) That's the norm. It won't be unlike other electric cars. That's fundamental stuff for rechargeable batteries; can't get around it. I think Model 3 has something similar.

I don't know what's the exact SR range. If it is 208 miles, then, it will be a 140-mile car after 8 years. the ER will be a 210 mile BEV. It is possible the EPA range is conservative. Thats how most OEMs seem to be -putting the EPA estimate, on th conservative side. Except Tesla, according to many articles on this.
FYI: Ford is not providing a guarantee that it WILL degrade 30%, but rather that it WON'T. My expectations are for less than 10% degradation at 100k miles. Trying to extrapolate from different chemistry, battery management software, battery configuration, cooling/heating system effectiveness, etc., is similar to making life and maintenance predictions based on a comparison between a diesel truck and gasoline/electric hybrid sedan. Doesn't make any sense. The battery modules in the Mach E are pouch style, for example, rather than cylindrical cells, very different behavior when it comes to cooling and degradation. And, you can't really categorize "Ford" batteries, since every version of battery they have used for their hybrids, PHEV, and EV models over the years has been different chemistry, configuration, BMS, etc. They have never built a car using what is in the Mach E. You can find various discussions and predictions in lots of threads on this forum, some by battery experts, so look for those instead of continuing to read this post!!

I have learned to not DCFC much above 90% in my Kona, for example, even though it has a lifetime unlimited mileage warranty on my battery. I therefore expect my Kona battery to last longer than MY lifetime, so I do not expect to have to file a claim with Hyundai!
 

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Why should they give you more range and risk burning out the battery when you have had the car and paid for it. That logic makes no sense. It would only be for new customers and sold as an improvement and probably in addition to a battery improvement too. Once they have delivered the car there is no reason to increase the range. That is delusional to expect to happen.
Respectfully disagree, @SteveUk. It is likely that the best sales people are not at the dealerships, they are Owners, like we are about to be. How do you think Tesla got to the sales numbers they have? By wowing owners who then rave to friends and families.
 

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Do all of the cells degrade uniformly?

If not, doesn't that mean that the capacity could decline below 70% but then if they opened up more capacity it could bump it back up?
No, they don't degrade uniformly. There is variation among the cells due to manufacturing tolerances as well is imperfectly uniform conditioning. But, by the time you see such drastic degradation, the upper buffer on all of the cells will likely be gone already. The only cushion left is the little bit at the bottom, and freeing that up could accelerate degradation significantly.
 

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There isn't anything to "unlock" at that point. If the SR AWD car is showing that it can only hold enough of a charge to get 150 miles, then the cells are already limited to being able to hold a combined charge of 48.5 kwh. There isn't anything to "unlock", except perhaps the small amount at the bottom.
I think that's just saying the same thing a different way.

Let's say that the 11% buffer starts out as 6% on the top and 5% on the bottom. If, for example, there's a 5% battery capacity degradation after 3 years, you're saying the degradation will automatically come out of the upper buffer (thus automatically reducing it to 1%). Others are assuming that might have to be an OTA software adjustment. It just depends on how Ford is calculating/implementing the 11% buffer. Do they lock in the 5% bottom, the 6% top, and whatever is left is the usable?... or do they lock in the 5% bottom, the 88 kWh in the middle, and then whatever is left is the top buffer? I have no idea.

Either way though, they can get to the same point.
 

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Yeah, cold temps are another angle on all this. We don't know whether that might be the reason Tommy only got ~40 kW, or whether the charger was having issues, or whether it was just a preproduction quirk, or what. If it charges fine (say, 80-100 kW in the 35% area) at 20C but only 40 kW at -20C, that's gonna be a significant negative for many. But I don't think we can draw that conclusion yet.

I remember one video in Europe that showed a charging snapshot, and it was fine. Can't remember which one though (there's so many jammed into that one thread that it's hard to even find one you're looking for).

I betcha Ford is monitoring the respected reviewers to see their experiences. It's good feedback for them to work with.
My only concern is not being able to get it up to 90% at -20 C sitting at a charger 110 mi away from the next without sleeping in the vehicle. L2 10 KW charging with the heater and accessories taking 5 KW because it is cold will take a long long time to get home. At 80% max charge (70 KWh usable) it now makes the vehicle a 8 month car for safe travel up here right now. I will take the 40 KW over 80% and be smiling. L2 at 80% not so much. Understand Ford is thinking for us with the buffer and never wants us to see full range and is hiding degradation. That was the first hit, 80% L2 is the apparent second with the info we have and it is a bit too much for cold weather travel with our infrastructure right now.
 



 









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