dbsb3233

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Yeah I would think nothing would be non-refundable before being able to see/sit/drive one in person. At least I would hope.

If they're dedicating that many to demo-only (until more arrive), that takes a lot of vehicles out of the 50k for 2021 off the table, setting many buyers back months (or even a year).

It almost seems like they could just manufacture the vehicle to the orderer's specs, and when it arrives, the buyer just test drives it and decides whether they want it or not at that point. Sounds like there would be plenty of demand in that first year for the dealers to sell it to someone else if the original orderer decided not to buy it.
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Sounds like there would be plenty of demand in that first year for the dealers to sell it to someone else if the original orderer decided not to buy it.
Agreed, but I've noticed dealerships don't always behave rationally. We'll see how it goes! Good news is there are plenty of BEVs being announced. Bad news is most aren't available yet (especially in non-ZEV states).
 

dbsb3233

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The wildcard is that hefty tax credit, and getting one before those run out. If it wasn't for that, good chance I'd wait to see what other BEVs are coming in the next year or two. I'd be especially interested in that rumored midsize Ford SUV BEV (being compared to the Edge in size). But seems likely the $7500 will be used up by then.
 

TheSteelRider

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The wildcard is that hefty tax credit, and getting one before those run out.
Yeah, have to admit, I would also wait a tad more if it were not for the credit. Then again, there is an argument to be made that Ford has priced the Mach E $7,500 more because of the credit, and that as the credit expires, the price of the vehicle will drop as well, similar to what happened with the Model 3.
 


dbsb3233

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I'm no fan of such policy (taxing everyone else to give a big tax credit to people's $60,000 car purchases). But like other taxpayers, I've been paying my share of those taxes for years. Now that I'm in position to finally get something in return for it, I'm not about to turn it down (even though I disagree with such policy). It is what it is.

It's hard to say what Ford's price would be without the tax credit. For instance, the Model Y is said to be direct competition with the Mach-e (and vise versa), yet it's not discounted $7500 less than the Mach-e. They seem to have nearly identical prices.

But I just looked at a 2020 Chevy Bolt online and it's showing $8500 customer cash discount off MSRP (perhaps because Chevy has used up their credits), so maybe that one does have a jacked up MSRP.

There's just not enough apples-to-apples competition yet to really determine whether the MSRP's are jacked up to take advantage of the tax credits or not.
 
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I'm no fan of such policy (taxing everyone else to give a big tax credit to people's $60,000 car purchases). But like other taxpayers, I've been paying my share of those taxes for years. Now that I'm in position to finally get something in return for it, I'm not about to turn it down (even though I disagree with such policy). It is what it is.

It's hard to say what Ford's price would be without the tax credit. For instance, the Model Y is said to be direct competition with the Mach-e (and vise versa), yet it's not discounted $7500 less than the Mach-e. They seem to have nearly identical prices.

But I just looked at a 2020 Chevy Bolt online and it's showing $8500 customer cash discount off MSRP (perhaps because Chevy has used up their credits), so maybe that one does have a jacked up MSRP.

There's just not enough apples-to-apples competition yet to really determine whether the MSRP's are jacked up to take advantage of the tax credits or not.
Technically you're not getting anyone else's money and thus it isn't taxing everyone else. Its more of a credit of taxes you've already paid. Especially since if you haven't paid $7500 in taxes you won't get all of the $7500. So sure it reduces your taxes but doesn't increase anyone elses.

You could argue that the net affect is that the government doesn't get as much money and, thus, other people have to pay more. Still, however, it isn't like you are getting someone else's money--its kind of more like using the government as a savings account: You pay the taxes in and then when you buy an EV you get that tax money back in the credit.
 

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I'm no fan of such policy (taxing everyone else to give a big tax credit to people's $60,000 car purchases). But like other taxpayers, I've been paying my share of those taxes for years. Now that I'm in position to finally get something in return for it, I'm not about to turn it down (even though I disagree with such policy). It is what it is.

It's hard to say what Ford's price would be without the tax credit. For instance, the Model Y is said to be direct competition with the Mach-e (and vise versa), yet it's not discounted $7500 less than the Mach-e. They seem to have nearly identical prices.

But I just looked at a 2020 Chevy Bolt online and it's showing $8500 customer cash discount off MSRP (perhaps because Chevy has used up their credits), so maybe that one does have a jacked up MSRP.

There's just not enough apples-to-apples competition yet to really determine whether the MSRP's are jacked up to take advantage of the tax credits or not.
Yeah, I noticed the cash back on the bolt, too - it is very recent (after Mach-E announcement). I am not sure if it is just housecleaning to move excess inventory, or a competition thing. I've been intending to get a BEV as soon as my current ride is paid off, so I've been watching prices and options for a couple of years. As background I bought a 2015 v6 convertible (the car I've wanted for 30 years) when I had a 16 mile daily commute, but have since changed jobs to a 100 mile daily commute - and burning that much gas has me feeling guilty. Anyway, until the Mach-E (with tax credit) came along I could only afford a Bolt. Not to offend anyone, but IMHO the Bolt is an econobox compared to the Mach-E, and with the tax credit the Select edition is only a little more expensive. In the near term Bolt sales are going to get killed, and I think Chevy knows that. We'll see if these kinds of discounts last on the Bolt, but I would expect its price to drop permanently through 2022 or Chevy will have to restyle it - maybe both.
 

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It's hard to say what Ford's price would be without the tax credit. For instance, the Model Y is said to be direct competition with the Mach-e (and vise versa), yet it's not discounted $7500 less than the Mach-e. They seem to have nearly identical prices.
I just looked. A Long Range RWD Model Y with 300 miles of range starts at $48k. A Premium Mach E Long Range RWD starts at $55.6k. That is exactly $7,600 apart. Quite suspicious ...
 

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I just looked. A Long Range RWD Model Y with 300 miles of range starts at $48k. A Premium Mach E Long Range RWD starts at $55.6k. That is exactly $7,600 apart. Quite suspicious ...
But that's the Premium Mach-e, not the base. The base Mach-e starts at $43k. Add $5k for the ER battery and that's $48k.
 

dbsb3233

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Technically you're not getting anyone else's money and thus it isn't taxing everyone else. Its more of a credit of taxes you've already paid. Especially since if you haven't paid $7500 in taxes you won't get all of the $7500. So sure it reduces your taxes but doesn't increase anyone elses.

You could argue that the net affect is that the government doesn't get as much money and, thus, other people have to pay more. Still, however, it isn't like you are getting someone else's money--its kind of more like using the government as a savings account: You pay the taxes in and then when you buy an EV you get that tax money back in the credit.
As with all things taxes, there's more to it than that. Technically you're correct that a tax credit isn't a true subsidy. A true subsidy is actually receiving money from government (i.e. tax dollars, mostly from other people). A tax credit is paying less (in taxes).

But the reality is that reduced revenue (because of tax credits) means that money ends up displacing what it would have otherwise gone to. And the more they do that, the more likely it is to force them to replace that lost revenue in other ways (i.e. higher taxes). So even though a single tax credit may not move the needle enough to do that, as a general practice it does.

And whether you already paid the taxes is only a cashflow matter. When you actually pay them (this year, next April, etc) is irrelevant to the total amount. But you're right that if your total federal income tax liability for the year you purchase the car isn't at least $7500, then you won't get maximum value from the tax credit.

I'm over age 59 1/2 so that one is easy for me -- I'll just withdraw some extra from my IRA to make sure I have $7500 in total federal income tax liability for the year.
 
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TheSteelRider

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But that's the Premium Mach-e, not the base. The base Mach-e starts at $43k. Add $5k for the ER battery and that's $48k.
True. But, since there are no "base" Model Y's, and Tesla starts off by selling the higher priced versions first, I think you must compare the Premium.
 

dbsb3233

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No ER option for MME Select.
OK. That means there may not be a direct counterpart for that specific configuration. But we can piece together what it would be if they did offer that config by knowing they're pricing the ER battery at $5000.
 

dbsb3233

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True. But, since there are no "base" Model Y's, and Tesla starts off by selling the higher priced versions first, I think you must compare the Premium.
So is Ford though. The base-model "Select" Mach-e won't be sold at first either.

I guess to really compare we'd need to drill down into the specific features offered in the Premium package (and whatever the Model Y includes). I'm not gonna bother with that. The point was just to do a rough comparison.

Here's another way to do it, I suppose. Price for the base Model Y was announced at $39,000. The base Mach-e $43,895. So $4895 more. Maybe it does reflect some of the tax credit, but not all. But even that's not apples-to-apples.
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