buzznwood

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The fastest time I've seen for the My-P was 11.9. I predict that after 60 mph, the MY-P would pull ahead until the end. The Mach-E would also have to be at close to full charge.

But I agree, a head to head is what's needed.
Agree have no clue where the idea that the model Y P runs 12.2 comes from. All these runs here are below 12.2, the fastest 12.0 on the dot (who knows state of charge) so sub 12 should be of no surprise

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pt19713

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The fastest time I've seen for the My-P was 11.9. I predict that after 60 mph, the MY-P would pull ahead until the end. The Mach-E would also have to be at close to full charge.

But I agree, a head to head is what's needed.
The MYP also does 11.9 @114 consistently. There are a few outliers at 11.7 and 12.1, the slower times with lower SoC and colder temperatures. If you download the Dragy GPS app, you can view the leaderboards without having to purchase the hardware.
 

Mach1E

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Agree have no clue where the idea that the model Y P runs 12.2 comes from. All these runs here are below 12.2, the fastest 12.0 on the dot (who knows state of charge) so sub 12 should be of no surprise

Sorry it was 12.1.

The idea comes from professional magazine tests. Something we are still waiting on for the Mach E.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/amp36376244/2020-tesla-model-y-performance-by-the-numbers/

Yes, I know some have run faster in the Y. But the sample size is significantly larger. A tenth or two doesn’t make a clear winner in the 1/4 mile.

However 10 mph trap speed…….. Where is that dead horse so I can beat him again?
 

buzznwood

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Sorry it was 12.1.

The idea comes from professional magazine tests. Something we are still waiting on for the Mach E.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/amp36376244/2020-tesla-model-y-performance-by-the-numbers/

Yes, I know some have run faster in the Y. But the sample size is significantly larger. A tenth or two doesn’t make a clear winner in the 1/4 mile.

However 10 mph trap speed…….. Where is that dead horse so I can beat him again?
Agree you will always get a mixture of results even with the pro mags, my interest with the pro reviews would be if they magically get faster times than owners which would suggest something fishy going on with review vehicles, it doesn't really take much to launch a BEV so the best times will come from not having much wheel slip which can be all to easy on crappy road surfaces :( giving woeful 60ft times and costing you in the 1/4.

I like to keep comparisons to BEV vs BEV rather than bringing in ICE but having just watched the carwow RS3 review and it manged to do a 11.98 1/4, with stock AWD hot hatches now dipping below the 12's it is not going to be long before anything above 12 seconds is classed as pedestrian and not worthy of a performance vehicle lol.
 

jasaero

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I would say it depends on the thickness of the plate used relative to the heat it needs to transfer. The plastic foot doesn't interfere with the heat transfer and is needed for the structure to stand vertically. However, they could have used a thicker aluminum plate or two smaller plates in opposite directions, still allowing the plastic to stand the package upright along the ends. I don't see the bottom edge of the battery pouch to be flat enough to contact well without a lot of thermal interface paste.
Agreed...the pictures were from Sandy Munro's video and to me it was a decent design. I would like to see a more active design on the big areas of these packs from someone eventually for performance cars...but really the whole pack will heat somewhat evenly as it's taxed since it's all packed in so tight and as long as there are things like these aluminum plates pulling heat off cells to the active cooling stuff I suspect core temps in the cells will stay reasonable until overall pack and active cooling water temps start to get out of hand.....but could see really hard race style extended max use stuff requiring more active approaches.

Also agree something like the "GT" you are paying a premium for could have a bit more and somewhat premium design with bit more gauge on the aluminum or something, but generally think there is probably some novel approach to active cooled flat pack cells that someone will eventually come up with that is cheap and easy and will become the norm.
 


Frankie

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To be fair, it already does compete in the 1/4 mile. Fastest time for the GTPE so far is 12.2, which matches times we have seen for the MYP.

How it runs the times is a different story.

I still want to see a side by side race. The GTPE should beat it on the launch and be ahead most of the time, then the MYP will blow past it right before the end.
Depends on your definition of "compete" i guess because I'd say from the numbers we've seen the GT will lose every single time. The best GTPE time we've seen is equal to an average or worse MYP time and the average GTPE time is something like 12.5 which I wouldn't call competitive.

The 0-60 is good. ETs are just okay. Trap speeds are dismal thanks to Ford's hidden "boost" secret. Saw an E-Tron commercial this morning and they mentioned that the rated 0-60 was only with boost on and I don't think anyone even considers the E-Tron a performance BEV.
 
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Mach1E

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Depends on your definition of "compete" i guess because I'd say from the numbers we've seen the GT will lose every single time. The best GTPE time we've seen is equal to an average or worse MYP time and the average GTPE time is something like 12.5 which I wouldn't call competitive.

The 0-60 is good. ETs are just okay. Trap speeds are dismal thanks to Ford's hidden "boost" secret. Saw an E-Tron commercial this morning and they mentioned that the rated 0-60 was only with boost on and I don't think anyone even considers the E-Tron a performance BEV.
My definition of “compete” is a “drivers race.”

And even with the crap trap speeds, it would be a drivers race. A couple tenths is less than the spread of the same vehicle, same driver, same day. And well within reaction times.

But yes, the MYP is faster overall and the longer the race goes the more likely we are to lose.

This is only 1/4 mile or less races. Roll race or anything longer? Not even remotely competitive.
 

Frankie

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There's only one (out of 14) MYPs on Dragy slower than 12.21. There's only one (out of 7) Mach-E GTs in "our" database that's run faster than 12.21 and he took out his passenger seats to do it.

Average vs average isn't a couple tenths. It's more like 4 tenths.

It's obviously subject to opinion but to me that is not a drivers race. Like yeah, technically if you take our fastest time it's faster than their slowest time but come on, the Mach-E is losing like 97 times out of 100 according to the data we have right now.

Try and line up against MYPs driven by real fat guys that look sleepy if you want a (small) chance to win I guess.
 

Mach1E

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There's only one (out of 14) MYPs on Dragy slower than 12.21. There's only one (out of 7) Mach-E GTs in "our" database that's run faster than 12.21 and he took out his passenger seats to do it.

Average vs average isn't a couple tenths. It's more like 4 tenths.

It's obviously subject to opinion but to me that is not a drivers race. Like yeah, technically if you take our fastest time it's faster than their slowest time but come on, the Mach-E is losing like 97 times out of 100 according to the data we have right now.

Try and line up against MYPs driven by real fat guys that look sleepy if you want a (small) chance to win I guess.
I don’t disagree, just making a couple points that we don’t have enough data yet and at least we are in the ballpark.

I still haven’t even heard a consensus on the best launch mode and technique for the GTPE. “throw it in unbridled and stab the pedal” is likely the reason for the slower times so far. We also don’t know which temp/weather is best.

Just figuring out the above could make up for 2 of those 4 10ths. Of course we are all hoping Ford makes up for all of them OTA.

I see us beating the Y at first, tying at the 1/8th then a couple cars behind by the 1/4. Anyone sleeps at the light and it’s over.
 

dtbaker61

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Just figuring out the above could make up for 2 of those 4 10ths. Of course we are all hoping Ford makes up for all of them OTA.
If you REALLY want 'full power' for another second or maybe more, I'd suggest a fairly simple and inexpensive mod that any mechanic could pull off:
- pull out the Frunk
- locate the coolant line headed for the motor/inverter/battery loop
- splice in an 'ice bath' coolant loop.... basically just a copper coil in an ice water bath with a latching top so it doesn't slosh on acceleration you can chill before a run

probably cost less than $200 for a coil of copper, a tub with lid, hose and some plumbing fittings.
https://shop.greatfermentations.com/product/jumbo-immersion-wort-chiller/wort-chillers?

It might take a pre-run 'burnout' to trigger the front vents and coolant loop to open and circulate.

my bet is that when the temp sensors open up the coolant loop to chill batteries at full load, the coolant hitting the input side of the battery loop will drop from it's 'normal' 58 degrees to *something less than that*. Which should give you a few more seconds at full power.

If it doesn't work, you just remove the chiller loop and splice the coolant hose back together.

If this DOES work, then a more elegant mod which would also work for track and road racing would be to splice in a little heat pump Chiller running off the 12v connection and a flat-plate heat exchanger.


I realize this is a little counter-intuitive for people used to tweaking motors to produce more power.... but our MMEs are limited by COOLING. So..... are you ready to 'cool-rod' to get more kW to the wheels for a full 11 seconds ?!

we are still gonna hit the wall at rev limited 112 (non-GT), but that's better than the 102 trap ya'll get now.
 
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Pushrods&Capacitors

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I don’t disagree, just making a couple points that we don’t have enough data yet and at least we are in the ballpark.

I still haven’t even heard a consensus on the best launch mode and technique for the GTPE. “throw it in unbridled and stab the pedal” is likely the reason for the slower times so far. We also don’t know which temp/weather is best.

Just figuring out the above could make up for 2 of those 4 10ths. Of course we are all hoping Ford makes up for all of them OTA.

I see us beating the Y at first, tying at the 1/8th then a couple cars behind by the 1/4. Anyone sleeps at the light and it’s over.
Hey, if you ever get yanked by a Y Perf., send it my way….?
Ford Mustang Mach-E Discovered: GTPE Delivers 5 Seconds of Full Power on Acceleration Then Reduces Battery Power to Limit Heating DEFF1160-04BA-4F5C-913E-A8C5F9FD8C75
 

Mach1E

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If you REALLY want 'full power' for another second or maybe more, I'd suggest a fairly simple and inexpensive mod that any mechanic could pull off:
- pull out the Frunk
- locate the coolant line headed for the motor/inverter/battery loop
- splice in an 'ice bath' coolant loop.... basically just a copper coil in an ice water bath with a latching top so it doesn't slosh on acceleration you can chill before a run

probably cost less than $200 for a coil of copper, a tub with lid, hose and some plumbing fittings.
https://shop.greatfermentations.com/product/jumbo-immersion-wort-chiller/wort-chillers?

It might take a pre-run 'burnout' to trigger the front vents and coolant loop to open and circulate.

my bet is that when the temp sensors open up the coolant loop to chill batteries at full load, the coolant hitting the input side of the battery loop will drop from it's 'normal' 58 degrees to *something less than that*. Which should give you a few more seconds at full power.

If it doesn't work, you just remove the chiller loop and splice the coolant hose back together.

If this DOES work, then a more elegant mod which would also work for track and road racing would be to splice in a little heat pump Chiller running off the 12v connection and a flat-plate heat exchanger.


I realize this is a little counter-intuitive for people used to tweaking motors to produce more power.... but our MMEs are limited by COOLING. So..... are you ready to 'cool-rod' to get more kW to the wheels for a full 11 seconds ?!

we are still gonna hit the wall at rev limited 112 (non-GT), but that's better than the 102 trap ya'll get now.
Interesting idea, and it definitely could help with cooling, but it’s unlikely to fix the 5 seconds with the Mach E.

The 5 seconds is likely programmed in, not reliant on feedback based on coolant temps. 5 seconds is way to fast for coolant temps to jump anyways.

Easy way to see if it would matter would be to see if people get more than 5 seconds when it’s real cold outside. Almost certain they don’t.

Something like this could help it for repeated acceleration runs to keep it from going in “gray bar limp mode” for as long, but that wouldn’t change 1/4 mile times.
 

buzznwood

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I don’t disagree, just making a couple points that we don’t have enough data yet and at least we are in the ballpark.

I still haven’t even heard a consensus on the best launch mode and technique for the GTPE. “throw it in unbridled and stab the pedal” is likely the reason for the slower times so far. We also don’t know which temp/weather is best.

Just figuring out the above could make up for 2 of those 4 10ths. Of course we are all hoping Ford makes up for all of them OTA.

I see us beating the Y at first, tying at the 1/8th then a couple cars behind by the 1/4. Anyone sleeps at the light and it’s over.
There is really is very little technique required to launch a BEV other than stab the pedal, the different modes will just soften up the suspension that may or may not help (depending on surface), but really this should all be controlled via a launch feature that can easily have very fine control over the motors and the suspension to maximize the amount of slip for the best results far better than you could ever do with your foot

If ford added a decent launch control, the GTPE could probably easily see a 3.5 0-60 without needing to use a micky mouse 1ft roll out (so around 3.3 with 1ft) this will help shave a few of those 10th but it will still be crap once the grey bars of doom cut in on the power gauge, the only way to improve the 1/4 is to actually have 480hp for more than the microsecond we currently have, then it would have a time similar to other awd 480hp vehicles that launch well and end up in the high 11's.

By next year even more performance BEV's will be on the way and if unlike Ford there engineering lives up to the marketing chances are the model Y performance won't even be close to the performance benchmark in this class, so are people then going to start removing the exterior doors along with the interior trim to appear competitive ?
 

Mach1E

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There is really is very little technique required to launch a BEV other than stab the pedal, the different modes will just soften up the suspension that may or may not help (depending on surface), but really this should all be controlled via a launch feature that can easily have very fine control over the motors and the suspension to maximize the amount of slip for the best results far better than you could ever do with your foot

If ford added a decent launch control, the GTPE could probably easily see a 3.5 0-60 without needing to use a micky mouse 1ft roll out (so around 3.3 with 1ft) this will help shave a few of those 10th but it will still be crap once the grey bars of doom cut in on the power gauge, the only way to improve the 1/4 is to actually have 480hp for more than the microsecond we currently have, then it would have a time similar to other awd 480hp vehicles that launch well and end up in the high 11's.

By next year even more performance BEV's will be on the way and if unlike Ford there engineering lives up to the marketing chances are the model Y performance won't even be close to the performance benchmark in this class, so are people then going to start removing the exterior doors along with the interior trim to appear competitive ?
I agree, there shouldn’t be much technique, but it does make a difference.

Stab and go in unbridled vs:
traction control off (hit button once)
TC and stability disabled (hold button)
Slight brake boost
Full brake boost (full brake and full throttle)
And of course different suspension settings.

All of the above plus different weather, track prep (no spin, slight spin or lots of spin) can make a lot of difference.

The of course state of charge, weight of the driver, weight of the vehicle (pano roof or not) all matter.

Just saying that we are still figuring it all out with very limited data so far. I think a few more tenths could be in there.
 

dtbaker61

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The 5 seconds is likely programmed in, not reliant on feedback based on coolant temps. 5 seconds is way to fast for coolant temps to jump anyways.
I wouldn't make any final conclusions until data is available....

5 seconds at high current is plenty of time to trigger internal cell temp sensor. With decent heat transfer, even a second or two more under full power would make a big difference in 1/4 mile.

I think we'd need to see current versus temp over time to tell one way or the other whether current is cut based on cell temp or on a timer.

exterior air temp is not going to change cooling much, so that's not a good test. reducing coolant inlet temp from 58 deg F to 35-40 deg F entering the battery chill plate by running it thru an ice water bath would extract way more heat, and fast enough to make a difference in cell core temp during a drag run is what I'd bet.

considering how cheap this mod would be to test, it seems worth a try rather than a guess.
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