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EA kWh Pricing Announced

MerryBrown

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Possibly, but as I've said I don't think it will be a general problem other than right at mealtimes, and then only if there is a sit down restaurant right where the charger is. People aren't going to sit for any longer than they have to at Wendy's or McDonalds, and there's only so much wandering around Walmart that you can do.

If it becomes a problem, then address the problem. Don't create an unnecessary solution in search of a problem, particularly since they've already announced the policy.
I am wondering about places on the interstate where you currently have huge gas stations. Will there be huge lines waiting to charge? Will we be sitting for an hour each waiting for the cars in front of us to finish up? Anyone have experience with that?
 

ChasingCoral

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I am wondering about places on the interstate where you currently have huge gas stations. Will there be huge lines waiting to charge? Will we be sitting for an hour each waiting for the cars in front of us to finish up? Anyone have experience with that?
I’ve only had to wait for a charger once and it was a single, free DCFC at a Nissan station.
 

dbsb3233

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I am wondering about places on the interstate where you currently have huge gas stations. Will there be huge lines waiting to charge? Will we be sitting for an hour each waiting for the cars in front of us to finish up? Anyone have experience with that?
Not yet, since there are very few CCS (non-Tesla) BEVs on US roads. The Bolt is probably the biggest but even it's sales are pretty small. The Mach-E will immediately jump to the top of that list, and even that's only 20k or so next year.

By mid-decade, however, there will be a lot more on US roads. But more chargers too. It's anybody's guess whether waits will be frequent. But if they are, one would expect the market would respond before too long to add more capacity (if it's actually profitable, that is).
 

MerryBrown

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Not yet, since there are very few CCS (non-Tesla) BEVs on US roads. The Bolt is probably the biggest but even it's sales are pretty small. The Mach-E will immediately jump to the top of that list, and even that's only 20k or so next year.

By mid-decade, however, there will be a lot more on US roads. But more chargers too. It's anybody's guess whether waits will be frequent. But if they are, one would expect the market would respond before too long to add more capacity (if it's actually profitable, that is).
We are just not real good at infrastructure in this country.
 

LYTMCQ

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dbsb3233

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We are just not real good at infrastructure in this country.
Depends on what it is. Private sector is usually far better and quicker to respond than the public sector. For instance, the gas station network is great (all private sector).

But it also requires profit inventive for companies to invest that kinda money. If there's good money to me made, count on there being plenty of companies looking to jump in. But right now there isn't good money to be made, because demand for retail CCS charging is so low. Few customers = little business = low revenues = scant profits (or outright losses).

But 2021 is the year CCS charging in the US perks up, thanks in no small part to the Mach-E. It's all upward from there (albeit gradually).
 

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I constantly see lines at superchargers. Especially the one in Irvine. Makes me feel guilty as the car charges SO slow to 80%. I personally think charging tiered is not a bad idea. Especially because EA has less stalls per location than Tesla's superchargers. Or maybe have it dynamic so if it is high usage then it'll become tiered?
 

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dbsb3233

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I do wonder if these stations can ever recover all their costs. ~$250k for an install, plus insurance, maintenance, and maybe rent (not to mention the cost of electricity) is a helluva lot of cost. And requires a lot of revenue if they ever expect to not lose money. $0.31/kWh seems awfully low to pay back all those costs, even when usage volume rises.

Oh and add another $150k or so for the ones putting in Powerpacks.

I question how sustainable this business model is. And that it may keep potential competitors away (thus stunting expansion).
 

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I do wonder if these stations can ever recover all their costs. ~$250k for an install, plus insurance, maintenance, and maybe rent (not to mention the cost of electricity) is a helluva lot of cost. And requires a lot of revenue if they ever expect to not lose money. $0.31/kWh seems awfully low to pay back all those costs, even when usage volume rises.

Oh and add another $150k or so for the ones putting in Powerpacks.

I question how sustainable this business model is. And that it may keep potential competitors away (thus stunting expansion).
In a way it is similar to gas stations: have to buy more land, dig holes and bury tanks, then install pumps, etc.

Granted a gas station, these days, also includes a "convienence store" (they used to include a garage with mechanics). Of course the convienence store also requires a clerk...
 

dbsb3233

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In a way it is similar to gas stations: have to buy more land, dig holes and bury tanks, then install pumps, etc.

Granted a gas station, these days, also includes a "convienence store" (they used to include a garage with mechanics). Of course the convienence store also requires a clerk...
That's why that little bag of chips is so expensive. 😉

But for the broader model, there's just a huge difference in volume. Even when charging stations get busy, we're talking maybe two $15 transactions per hour per charger. While a gas pump can do around 15 $30 transactions per hour.
 

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That's why that little bag of chips is so expensive. 😉

But for the broader model, there's just a huge difference in volume. Even when charging stations get busy, we're talking maybe two $15 transactions per hour per charger. While a gas pump can do around 15 $30 transactions per hour.
Sure there is and the charger companies see all these EVs coming up (including Mach-E) and are hoping volume increases with them. It should for the road tripping but won't for the local since just about everyone will charge at home. (In other words a bunch of fast chargers wont be necessary in the city center but will be out on the highway's where EA has been putting them.)
 

dbsb3233

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Sure there is and the charger companies see all these EVs coming up (including Mach-E) and are hoping volume increases with them. It should for the road tripping but won't for the local since just about everyone will charge at home. (In other words a bunch of fast chargers wont be necessary in the city center but will be out on the highway's where EA has been putting them.)
Totally agree that the priority for DCFC should be road trip locations rather than city/residential locations. I just worry about the economics supporting it at only $0.31/kWh with these high costs. And how that may inhibit the expansion and competition that we're hoping for.
 

timbop

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Totally agree that the priority for DCFC should be road trip locations rather than city/residential locations. I just worry about the economics supporting it at only $0.31/kWh with these high costs. And how that may inhibit the expansion and competition that we're hoping for.
While it's true that this could be a predatory move a'la walmart, I doubt they would do it if the bean counters didn't agree. We have no idea what agreements they have with utilities, local governments, etc - and absent that information we can't really say whether it is sustainable or not. So, I am hopeful that they are sure that they will be able to recoup there investment even if it is over the longer term. Also, it is always possible that they will raise the rates next year if things don't work out.
 

dbsb3233

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While it's true that this could be a predatory move a'la walmart, I doubt they would do it if the bean counters didn't agree. We have no idea what agreements they have with utilities, local governments, etc - and absent that information we can't really say whether it is sustainable or not. So, I am hopeful that they are sure that they will be able to recoup there investment even if it is over the longer term. Also, it is always possible that they will raise the rates next year if things don't work out.
Agree that there's no way for us to know for sure. My concern is more that the model itself may not be self-sustaining at such rates (meaning dependent on subsidy). In EA's case, there's a decade of VW penalty money subsidizing it. But that only goes so far. And competitors that we're hoping jump in don't have that.

Time will tell. For my own purposes, I'm glad EA dramatically lowered their rates. I just wonder if that will also slow spending on new stations by EA and those that might have wanted to compete with them.
 



 










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