Mach1E

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I hope that Ford does release some kind of improvement. I don't think anyone is expecting 100% power indefinitely, but something longer than 5 seconds, or with a more gradual taper rather than a cliff, sounds reasonable.

I work on stationary grid storage, and work with all the major battery vendors - they often have very strict, but somewhat silly, operational requirements, because from their perspective it is easy to be simple and strict than to follow nuance. One example is a vendor that requires their BMS to turn off if humidity goes above a certain level - we worked with them to do the opposite, if the humidity goes up, increase power to warm up the system and reduce the risk of condensation. In this case I can imagine that a gradual roll-off could be just as effective as a cliff, and far less noticeable to drivers.

Of course, one counter example to keep in mind is that some manufacturers may be willing to sacrifice their future warranties in order to sell more cars today... I have real concerns that part of Tesla's overvaluation is the massive warranty obligation they are sitting on.
I’ve heard about the “save the battery/warranty” argument a lot now about why Ford is being conservative while Tesla isn’t.

However, Teslas have been on the road long enough for us to figure out if there are a ton of battery warranty claims. Is that the case or are we just making excuses on behalf of Ford?
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voxel

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I don't know what you're trying to say here, considering speedy station wagons are very desirable in the car community. Utility without the height.

Maybe you were making a bad joke or maybe you've never heard of this?
But why though? It's a station wagon not a performance car. I see why you need turbo on an Outback because the stock engine is weak. If I want a performance car, buy a Model S or M3P

If there was station wagon racing series sure. Folks race everything else:

https://24hoursoflemons.com/
http://www.fiaetrc.com/
 

JcMarin

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So the GTPE brakes better, rides better, handles better, built better, looks better and has more range.

The MYP can accelerate for more than 5 seconds so it wins the comparison??
This all boils down to your expectations of the Car and why you're buying it, for some of us the other aspects where the MME GT wins over the MY is more important than the full performance or 5 second limit.

But for others who bought the car expecting it to be a full "Performance" EV (like @Frankie ) and they are seeing the performance seriously limited compared to other EV's, you have to admit that this is a major disappointment and for some even a deal breaker.

In my case I'm still eager to take delivery of my GT and I think I will be happy with my "informed" decision, but also still hoping Ford will be able to improve this limitation with a software update down the road, even if its just to have more consistent power delivery for highway passing acceleration.
 
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pt19713

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I’ve heard about the “save the battery/warranty” argument a lot now about why Ford is being conservative while Tesla isn’t.

However, Teslas have been on the road long enough for us to figure out if there are a ton of battery warranty claims. Is that the case or are we just making excuses on behalf of Ford?
I'm pretty active on the Tesla groups. I haven't seen any in months. The ones that come are the older S models. I haven't seen 3 or Y warranty claim for excessive degradation.
Can you quantify 'a ton of battery warranty' claims?
 

pt19713

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I don't know what you're trying to say here, considering speedy station wagons are very desirable in the car community. Utility without the height.

Maybe you were making a bad joke or maybe you've never heard of this?
I agree. It's a small niche crowd but there still is a market.
I wanted a CTS-V wagon but the wife said no. End of that discussion.
 

pt19713

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Oh and one more disappointment for the video……

No side by side drag race? Huge missed opportunity.
I wonder if Ford put limitations on their loaner, assuming it was a manufacturer vehicle and not a loaner from a regular consumer.
 

pt19713

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It's quite amazing that the GTPE is better in every way to the MYP but for the 5 second Performance part so therefore it's unworthy.

Edmunds doesn't like the performance aspect being compromised so severely and this is how they're letting Ford know.
Yeah, I think the Mach-E GTPE would've been their favorite if the 5 second rule wasn't implemented. Edmunds pretty much hates their Model Y Performance other than the straight line speed.
 

trutolife27

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Sometimes I come here just for a good laugh or a chuckle. I didn't buy my model 3 or y for its speed. I purchased it for fill-in-the-blank, not truthful reasons. Elon himself said he knows the main reason for the extra hype and to keep sales up is the speed for tesla. Which is all fine and no one is saying that is wrong.

But when so many different reviews basically say the mache is pretty much across the board better than the model y. but................ it's not as fast or the oh my charging network is not as good. Pretty much sums it up. You want the fastest takeoff and drag race sure go tesla. The better all-around go mache. Driving like a fool with other people on the road at crazy speeds is really not my cup of tea.

8 to 10 years from now we will see how each companies battery held up. I can tell you this my nephew's 2018 model 3 performance already has lost more range than he thought it would. He couldn't even get 240 miles at 100% charge out of it on our trip last month while the mache made it without a charging stop. We both were shocked.

Oh and the supercharger talks again. Most people will not even use one once a year. But let's say you do. You're only about a year to a year and a half before the tesla chargers are open up to everyone else. So that goes out the window.

That is one of the things as a father that does worry me. When all the cars are BEV and super fast how will the general public act? More wrecks and life's lost and does the government step in to regulate speed. It's a time bomb waiting to explode.
 
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Mach1E

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But why though? It's a station wagon not a performance car. I see why you need turbo on an Outback because the stock engine is weak. If I want a performance car, buy a Model S or M3P

If there was station wagon racing series sure. Folks race everything else:

https://24hoursoflemons.com/
http://www.fiaetrc.com/
Because some people want to haul kids AND haul ass.

And yes, they make performance station wagons. You can have both.
 

phidauex

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I’ve heard about the “save the battery/warranty” argument a lot now about why Ford is being conservative while Tesla isn’t.

However, Teslas have been on the road long enough for us to figure out if there are a ton of battery warranty claims. Is that the case or are we just making excuses on behalf of Ford?
Part of the problem is that it takes many years before the issue becomes apparent. There wouldn't be a lot of warranty claims for Model 3 or Y even if they weren't performing well, because the models are still too new.

What I can tell you from the stationary storage world (which uses most of the same cells, from the same manufacturers as EVs) is that some companies have been burned BAD on risky degradation assumptions, and some have been driven out of business as a result (and some larger ones have simply eaten huge losses as a result). The systems I'm designing go to the market for debt and equity funding, and have to meet very rigorous demands for how we calculate degradation. Tesla builds their systems primarily on their own balance sheet, meaning they don't have to prove degradation to anyone. That fact alone doesn't say whether their batteries are better or worse, just that their strategy is to make commitments, and then hold the risk internally, and with little explanation. Time alone will tell whether that was the right call on their part.

I'm not trying to be a doomsayer and I don't think Ford and LG have a magic solution that no one else has, just that different companies are taking very different approaches to this risk and it will be a long time before it is proven out which strategy is most effective.
 

pt19713

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You have to take these reviews with a grain of salt, fanboys spend a lot of time on YT and are the viewership base for these "reviewers". Nobody wants their fury. DeMuro took a similar approach and it was clear that the MME was the overall winner but he had to be kind to the Tesla.

Charging is overwhelming done at home and drivers rarely accelerate for 5s on full power, but reviewers will continue to use these two things to moderate their preference for the MME. Remember when the top reason to choose a Tesla was "but it has longer range".

Agree with all the comments here though, we can't be nice to Ford until they unleash the beast!
Check out Edmunds' previous Tesla content. They are far from a fan boy. They pretty much hate their Tesla Model Y in their fleet and they're typically negative on Tesla in general, which is why it's surprising they gave the win to the Model Y in this video.

"Range is king" is fairly overrated for most parts of the country, if you own a Tesla. For non-Tesla, yeah, maybe more range is important since you don't have confidence in the 3rd party network and if the station will work or not. Most people don't have a bladder than can outlast 260 miles in a Y, 320 miles in a 3 (real world range).
 

voxel

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Jimmy2

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Edmunds concludes that the 5 second rule is a deal breaker.

Darren Palmer, Dave Pericak, and Donna Dickson can solve this right now if they really wanted to, but will they?
Donna, Darren and Dave: Show us you are as much of a "Car Guy" as Jim Farley.
 

Jimmy2

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Such a shame that the Mustang basically beats the Tesla in nearly every category, but the stupid power limitation kills the recommendation from Edmunds.

Ford says they limit the power delivery to five seconds to "preserve the battery life"...but why don't they just add an option called "GIVE ME THE FUCKING POWER" that warns the user of battery degradation and other BS we don't care about if we're on a lease or Ford Options and unlocks the true power of the car? It's lack of creative thinking at Ford and is sad, frankly.
Or better still: Figure out how to give that baby more than 5 seconds of full power without putting the warranty in jeopardy, like Tesla did?
 

voxel

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Part of the problem is that it takes many years before the issue becomes apparent. There wouldn't be a lot of warranty claims for Model 3 or Y even if they weren't performing well, because the models are still too new.

What I can tell you from the stationary storage world (which uses most of the same cells, from the same manufacturers as EVs) is that some companies have been burned BAD on risky degradation assumptions, and some have been driven out of business as a result (and some larger ones have simply eaten huge losses as a result). The systems I'm designing go to the market for debt and equity funding, and have to meet very rigorous demands for how we calculate degradation. Tesla builds their systems primarily on their own balance sheet, meaning they don't have to prove degradation to anyone. That fact alone doesn't say whether their batteries are better or worse, just that their strategy is to make commitments, and then hold the risk internally, and with little explanation. Time alone will tell whether that was the right call on their part.

I'm not trying to be a doomsayer and I don't think Ford and LG have a magic solution that no one else has, just that different companies are taking very different approaches to this risk and it will be a long time before it is proven out which strategy is most effective.
I think the battery cooling system plays a big part of it. I need to dig up the research article but they put an ID.3 and Model 3 LFP onto a dyno and measured everything possible. The VW cooling system attempted to constantly keep the battery below 33 Celsius which is pretty an aggressive low temp. It's an underrated cooling system. Tesla began throttling performance a little when temps hit the upper 30s (Celsius).

We know from Bjorn's videos that the Ioniq 5 and EV6 began throttling in the upper 30s / low-40s. and the fact they allow such temps means they have a larger risk tolerance. And we also see that Bjorn's in his Mach-E 1000km challege noted the Mach-E barely cooled his battery 1 degree (dropped from 39C to 38C) in a 20min drive so the cooling system isn't as effective or aggressive as the VW one. Not sure how accurate his measurement was.
 
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