Edmunds: Mach-E GT vs. Model Y Performance Comparison Review

[Jimmy2]

You might not care, but they still have to warranty that battery for 100k/8 years regardless, so they have to care.

So how come Tesla can do it?

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[Whatstreet]

So how come Tesla can do it?

I have seen quotes from Elon where he said that driving the car very hard will increase battery degradation. I don't know if it is enough to get into an early battery warranty claim or not. Maybe Tesla is just willing to take a few warranty calls on packs.

Another thing. Tesla uses cylindrical cells and Ford is using pouch cells. There is no way the cold plate heats up in 5 seconds so they are worried about instantaneous heat increase in the cells. Maybe the cylindrical cells packaging have better thermal conductivity or act as a local thermal reservoir to help mitigate instantaneous heat.

 

[dtbaker61]

I think the battery cooling system plays a big part of it. ...

exactly.

I really do think a 'super-chiller' on the battery coolant line would be the quickest, easiest way to gain a couple more seconds under full load.... and not require any hack to software. Really just increasing the performance of the COOLING system to hold coolant temps within the conservative safe parameters Ford has set for warranty.

 

[dtbaker61]

I have seen quotes from Elon where he said that driving the car very hard will increase battery degradation. I don't know if it is enough to get into an early battery warranty claim or not. Maybe Tesla is just willing to take a few warranty calls on packs.

Another thing. Tesla uses cylindrical cells and Ford is using pouch cells. There is no way the cold plate heats up in 5 seconds so they are worried about instantaneous heat increase in the cells. Maybe the cylindrical cells packaging have better thermal conductivity or act as a local thermal reservoir to help mitigate instantaneous heat.

cylindrical cells provide a lot more surface area for given volume for heat transfer.

... and we know from earlier threads, the LG pouch cells have a plastic foot on top of the chill plate, chill plate is only on the bottom, and a thermal web every other pouch.... all limiting speedy heat transfer.

Ford/LG could improve design for speedier heat transfer, or drastically lower the temp of the coolant in response to heavy loads. reducing coolant temp might be DIY moddable, but re-designing cell pouches probably not.

 

[HuntingPudel]

But why though? It's a station wagon not a performance car. I see why you need turbo on an Outback because the stock engine is weak. If I want a performance car, buy a Model S or M3P

If there was station wagon racing series sure. Folks race everything else:

https://24hoursoflemons.com/
http://www.fiaetrc.com/

Oh, I dunno. I know of a number of 8 and 9 second station wagons. Not *my* cup of tea as a performance vehicle, but to each his (or her) own.

 

[buzznwood]

But why though? It's a station wagon not a performance car. I see why you need turbo on an Outback because the stock engine is weak. If I want a performance car, buy a Model S or M3P

If there was station wagon racing series sure. Folks race everything else:

https://24hoursoflemons.com/
http://www.fiaetrc.com/

Wagons have happily competed against sedans in racing series in the past.

So I am not sure what the point of what the shape of the vehicle has to do with performance or lack of? Performance vehicles come in all shapes and sizes to suit all tastes yes some body styles will have limitations compared to others.

The fact is Ford used performance in the tile and then didn't deliver on it is precisely why Edmunds should give it the thumbs down, the GTPE simple lacks the required performance to be worthy of using it in the tile. Is it a good BEV cross over yup sure is, As a good performance BEV crossover in current form it simply isn't.

 

[silverelan]

I'm pretty active on the Tesla groups. I haven't seen any in months. The ones that come are the older S models. I haven't seen 3 or Y warranty claim for excessive degradation.
Can you quantify 'a ton of battery warranty' claims?

Buddy of mine is experiencing significant degradation on his 2018 Model 3 LR Dual Motor. Something like 13% loss in 3 years (see below).

Tesla says it's within spec but despite lots of troubleshooting, he can't recover the range. It's definitely a point of concern but would otherwise never show up as a battery warranty issue.

 

[trutolife27]

Buddy of mine is experiencing significant degradation on his 2018 Model 3 LR Dual Motor. Something like 13% loss in 3 years (see below).

Tesla says it's within spec but despite lots of troubleshooting, he can't recover the range. It's definitely a point of concern but would otherwise never show up as a battery warranty issue.

yep already know my sister's model s she sold after 6 years had a range loss of around 47% it was bad. Dog the car out and use superchargers to charge over and over will hurt the life even if they act like it won't.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

I knew this video was coming back when the 5 second issues first popped up. I even specifically stated Edmunds would pit the GT against their purchased tester Model Y P. I’m sure the GT500 drag videos are incoming soon enough.

And lest you think they’re being Tesla fanbois, please educate yourself first. Edmunds is the only “big” outlet to really go right after Tesla about their overly optimistic EPA range estimates. In fact, they got into an internet back and forth with Tesla engineers, who, in the end, basically admitted that Teslas do not possess some mythical fixed range buffer as they’d been trying to let on.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html

The GT/PE just flat out shit the bed after 80ish in a 1/4 mile drag race. Case closed. Now, Ford can fix it. Because if the engineering team ever had an excuse to go to the battery warranty bean counters, these videos are giving them all the ammo they need.

 

[Scooby24]

Yeah...I'm good with a 5 second limit if it prevents that loss. Seriously I don't even think about that limit driving it daily as by the time I'd hit it I'm getting yelled at by the wife or kids.

 

[breeves002]

I don't understand this "5 second rule" it doesn't appear to be time based at all in my car.

There is a serious issue with it not giving you full power as long as it should but it really has nothing to do with time. If you're going 80mph and floor it you have it pull power almost immediately and have it down to 60% power limit by the time you've even hit 5 seconds...

If you're driving it hard already it will cut power almost immediately and leave it cut.

It seems to be a current in/current out. After DC fast charging at EA it will have a 60% power limit for probably 10+ minutes...even if the battery temp is nice and cool. It's just crappy software design...or there is a thermal limitation of something that isn't monitored they're worried about. Either way it seems not based on actual temperature data of the vehicle at all...just ambiguous timing/measuring of current.

 

[Larry Paul]

What I just said on the YouTube page: Having test driven both...we ordered a Mach E GT Performance - and honestly it was not even close. We are looking for an every day driver that is practical, well built, good range with a great user interface and also a serious blast to drive when the opportunity arises- with at least level 2 autonomy features. The Mach E GT Performance is a clear winner for what we will do with the car at least 359 days of any given year. The MME GT PE is the clear winner for about every single category for what we are looking forward to in a car that we drive on the street including the driving of the car in the real world. I really don't think I want an SUV from anyone if my goal was to race my car on the track- "GT" or "Performance". If I want a full out race car that is street legal, there are other choices (probably a Plaid with a 9.3 second 1/4 mile time at 150+MPH trap speed), but I know from experience that in the real world-the MME GT PE will do far more of everything that we are looking for-including a great user interface that includes CarPlay (& Android Auto). The Model Y is impressive, please don't get me wrong- and I am sure that it would be a fine ride...however...since every vehicle is compromise of features and performance, we found the MME GT PE to be as close to perfect for what we want in a car that we drive daily on the street-and it hands down for us blew the Tesla out of the water for what we want.

 

[benk016]

I don't understand this "5 second rule" it doesn't appear to be time based at all in my car.

There is a serious issue with it not giving you full power as long as it should but it really has nothing to do with time. If you're going 80mph and floor it you have it pull power almost immediately and have it down to 60% power limit by the time you've even hit 5 seconds...

If you're driving it hard already it will cut power almost immediately and leave it cut.

It seems to be a current in/current out. After DC fast charging at EA it will have a 60% power limit for probably 10+ minutes...even if the battery temp is nice and cool. It's just crappy software design...or there is a thermal limitation of something that isn't monitored they're worried about. Either way it seems not based on actual temperature data of the vehicle at all...just ambiguous timing/measuring of current.

I agree with this. Which is why I'm hopeful that it will be updated in the future.

 

[pt19713]

Buddy of mine is experiencing significant degradation on his 2018 Model 3 LR Dual Motor. Something like 13% loss in 3 years (see below).

Tesla says it's within spec but despite lots of troubleshooting, he can't recover the range. It's definitely a point of concern but would otherwise never show up as a battery warranty issue.

Yep, that's normal. I'm at 10% Years. It levels off after the first year. Mach-E owners are experiencing it but Ford has it hidden with the extra reserve (10-12 kWh). Probably after 5-6 years of data and improvements, they'll shrink the reserve and open up the capacity.

 

[silverelan]

Yep, that's normal. I'm at 10% Years. It levels off after the first year. Mach-E owners are experiencing it but Ford has it hidden with the extra reserve (10-12 kWh). Probably after 5-6 years of data and improvements, they'll shrink the reserve and open up the capacity.

You can see the fleet average per TeslaFi that 13% is abnormal.

If you're at 10% loss after just a year in the boosted Model Y and Tesla owners are accustomed to that, then that definitely tips the scales on usable range just 12 months into the ownership experience to the MME's favor.

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