Electrical Grid Argument Against EVs rebuttal

Blackbluff

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I have several 'friends' arguing that BEVs are going to bring the electrical grid system down and cause brown/black outs. They use quotes from local utilities that appear to confirm the extra load could cause some issues. In researching this subject I have developed a counterargument if you are interested and have similar 'friends'. The basic assumption is that an BEV adds to the overall electrical consumption and the equivalent usage of gasoline in the ICE unit being replaced is ignored. In most cases the BEV owner is ceasing to operate an ICE unit by replacing with the BEV. The fuel required for the ICE unit requires energy for the conversion to gasoline from the crude state. That conversion process requires 5-6 KWh per gallon. My MME gets about 4 mile per KWh. Simple math would suggest the energy for converting crude to gasoline would get me about 20-24 miles of range. I believe the average ICE vehicle gets about the same mileage per gallon. If the grid does not have to support gasoline manufacturing but uses that for BEVS then the electrical grid is not negatively impacted by charging BEVs as needed. Thoughts?
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chrisGT

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There is some truthful to what your friends say. Where I live when there is a heat wave and everyone uses their AC there are outages and burnt-out overloaded transformers.
Clearly the electrical network does not have the capacity to support the extra load in some areas.

Also when I charge at 40amps and use the electric dryer at the same time you can see a voltage drop. My house instalation is 200A and fairly new so the drop is probably because of the utilities transformer. I am worried that if/when the other 2-3 houses connected on the same transformer draw 30-50amps each to charge their EV at the same time as me we will end up with a burnt transformer.
 
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timbop

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It's an interesting thought experiment, but without hard data it is just that - a theory
 

timbop

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There is some truthful to what your friends say. Where I live when there is a heat wave and everyone uses their AC there are outages and burnt-out overloaded transformers.
Clearly the electrical network does not have the capacity to support the extra load in some areas.
Well, the assumption in that assertion is that charging is concurrent with peak A/C usage. That is typically not the case; most charging is done at night long after peak A/C usage. Sure the 1% or 2% of long distance travelers might be charging during the day but that is the exception not the rule. Then there is the solar factor - nitwits like me who get solar and an EV actually decrease the load during peak usage.
 

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Well, the assumption in that assertion is that charging is concurrent with peak A/C usage. That is typically not the case; most charging is done at night long after peak A/C usage. Sure the 1% or 2% of long distance travelers might be charging during the day but that is the exception not the rule. Then there is the solar factor - nitwits like me who get solar and an EV actually decrease the load during peak usage.
Me too. When you consume the power you create it’s a net plus.
 


TheVirtualTim

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You can schedule charging. I am on a Time-of-Use rate plan that gets me a reduced rate *if* I charge during off-peak hours (and if I charge during on-peak I would pay a premium even higher than the normal rate).

I schedule my car to charge in the middle of the night when the grid has excess capacity.

My utility company has a special pilot program they call "Smart Grid" for EV owners. This allows them to automatically update your charge schedule to help the grid. They can either suspend charging (they never do this for more than 2 hours) OR they can cause a car to start charging when they have excess capacity. It wont override the max charge state that you program for the car.
 

oadesign

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Add to that the energy required for transportation of that crude oil to refineries and then as gasoline to distribution centers, and then to stations. That supply chain consumes a lot of energy just to get the gas to the place where it’s purchased.

Electricity, on the other hand, moves far more efficiently, and BEVs can be charged when the grid is not at all stressed: overnight.
 

phidauex

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I work for one of the largest independent power producers in North America, and we own several utility companies. I can tell you that our execs are overjoyed at the prospect of growing vehicle and home electrification (moving away from direct natural gas burning).

Imagine, the biggest growth opportunity in the industry in a generation! Sure some companies will drag their heels because some people just can’t deal with change, but the rest are gearing up for a great decade of growth. Whether they are IPPs selling energy and grid reliability services, or regulated utilities rate basing improvements, the growth of EVs is a windfall for the electric industry.

So yes, upgrades will be needed, but it is no charity and the companies will be happy to do it.
 

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I work for one of the largest independent power producers in North America, and we own several utility companies. I can tell you that our execs are overjoyed at the prospect of growing vehicle and home electrification (moving away from direct natural gas burning).

Imagine, the biggest growth opportunity in the industry in a generation! Sure some companies will drag their heels because some people just can’t deal with change, but the rest are gearing up for a great decade of growth. Whether they are IPPs selling energy and grid reliability services, or regulated utilities rate basing improvements, the growth of EVs is a windfall for the electric industry.

So yes, upgrades will be needed, but it is no charity and the companies will be happy to do it.
A friend works for a medium sized utility. Based on what they tell me, I concur with these statements. The utility's upper management wants nothing more than more EV's on the road and they are planning according. The utility is even setting up their own DC fast chargers between two bigger cities across the state, and that's just the start of their plans. To reiterate, they can't wait until there's more demand for this (and have plans to upgrade their energy centers and infrastructures accordingly).
 

Gimme_my_MME

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You can schedule charging. I am on a Time-of-Use rate plan that gets me a reduced rate *if* I charge during off-peak hours (and if I charge during on-peak I would pay a premium even higher than the normal rate).

I schedule my car to charge in the middle of the night when the grid has excess capacity.

My utility company has a special pilot program they call "Smart Grid" for EV owners. This allows them to automatically update your charge schedule to help the grid. They can either suspend charging (they never do this for more than 2 hours) OR they can cause a car to start charging when they have excess capacity. It wont override the max charge state that you program for the car.
Have you had the DTE smart charge actually work? I've been plugged in during charge events and it didn't override my schedule to start charging
 

Tim_C

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Engineering Explained posted a video on this topic earlier this year. It offers some interesting numbers and other discussion points.
 

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Gerry, your email has a number of assumptions that simply don't hold up. Please visit the EPA website Explaining Electric & Plug-In Hybrid Electric Vehicles | US EPA

Second, the growth of BEV and Hybrid vehicles are not moving at rocket speed. I think the leadership of the vast majority of utilities and providers have thought through this, have made the investments and will continue to meet the need. Watch the Two-Bit Davinci YT show on this. He interviews one of the charger manufacturers and they discuss this very thing.

Lastly, we are at the start of the cycle. The progress and changes over the next 20 years will be remarkable. Ignore the FUD that your friends are coming up with. There is money, efforts and plans to address this. Nothing is guaranteed. Please ask them when there is only a need for 10% of the gasoline that there is today and most of the refinery production goes to diesel and jet fuel, are they worried about finding and paying for gas?
 
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Blackbluff

Blackbluff

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There is some truthful to what your friends say. Where I live when there is a heat wave and everyone uses their AC there are outages and burnt-out overloaded transformers.
Clearly the electrical network does not have the capacity to support the extra load in some areas.

Also when I charge at 40amps and use the electric dryer at the same time you can see a voltage drop. My house instalation is 200A and fairly new so the drop is probably because of the utilities transformer. I am worried that if/when the other 2-3 houses connected on the same transformer draw 30-50amps each to charge their EV at the same time as me we will end up with a burnt transformer.
Agree that the utility companies are probably not prepared for this extra load but that can be overcome with equipment upgrades. Selling more power generates new systems to deliver that power. I was looking at the grid overall which is a rather complex system in my original though process. Isolated areas may have a serious issue until capacity is addressed.
 
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Blackbluff

Blackbluff

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Well, the assumption in that assertion is that charging is concurrent with peak A/C usage. That is typically not the case; most charging is done at night long after peak A/C usage. Sure the 1% or 2% of long distance travelers might be charging during the day but that is the exception not the rule. Then there is the solar factor - nitwits like me who get solar and an EV actually decrease the load during peak usage.
I have solar also but wanted to see what others thought on this subject of grid overload.
 

timbop

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Agree that the utility companies are probably not prepared for this extra load but that can be overcome with equipment upgrades. Selling more power generates new systems to deliver that power. I was looking at the grid overall which is a rather complex system in my original though process. Isolated areas may have a serious issue until capacity is addressed.
Again, the extra capacity needed isn't necessarily very much because the added electricity generation can be done at offpeak when much of the generating capacity is currently idle
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