Electrify America is very expensive

RedStallion

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I wish I could simply go into my EA account and enter my VIN and have P&G work without needing Ford in the middle of it. That solves the discount issue and lets me charge multiple EVs with one account.

GM does it very differently, but does not yet support P&G. In MyChevrolet app I can link that app to my ChargePoint and EVGO apps, then initiate the charge. The billing is then direct with EVGO and ChargePoint, not via GM. Since I have two EVs from different manufacturers, I see no advantage of going through the OEM to provide billing.
The industry should standardize on charging. What exists now is an embarrassment for our computer age and it can't be scaled to millions of EVs they plan for the future.
There should be no need to do anything at the charging station other than connecting the car. There is no need to push buttons, or even having a display, or using any of those poorly written apps. There isn't any reason to require having a phone and internet connection in the first place.
A car can communicate with the connected charger, set up all parameters and use predefined payment methods. If there is any need to communicate with the driver it should be done using the car display.
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RedStallion

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Not sure if this has been mentioned, and we're talking California... but CalTrans is beginning to install free charging stations that will work on most EVs. Currently most are in Sacramento area -- of course! But, this is the way to go. Subsidizing EVs is cool, but what really needs to work is charging.
There is nothing free, somebody is going to pay for it for the inefficient bureaucratic structures that service those subsidies on top. It will eventually come out of our pockets either via taxes or inflation.
 

phidauex

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None of that is going to work. The batteries will probably increase the price by $0.2-0.5 per kWh or more because they have limited number of full cycles (500-1000) before they need to be replaced. Adding batteries to level the electricity consumption is very expensive, creates even higher demand for those metals, and results in more pollution. They would do better by pumping water or something similar. If electricity storage were cheap the electric companies wouldn't be charging for peak demand. Free market prices simply reflect reality.
Not necessarily - there are some good financial use cases for onsite storage with EV chargers, and the cycle life these days is more like 5000-7000 if the banks are relatively large. Pumped hydro is a good large scale solution where you have that resource in the area, but it doesn't work well on small scales - the round trip efficiency for DC coupled storage on an EV charger can be >90%, but 75% or less for pumped solutions, and they can't ramp fast enough for something like an EV charger peak.

Energy storage is getting cheap fast and a lot of utilities are rolling it out, but it takes time to deploy, and in the meantime the tariffs are designed around older thermal spinning reserve models that require high cost peaker plants to run just a few hours a day which results in that peak price being so high.

Ultimately I think it would be best if EV chargers simply paid the current marginal price in their market - most areas now have full real-time pricing between generators and utilities, and a large commercial buyer could participate in that real time pricing by smoothing it out a bit and adding a reasonable margin. That would incentivize some interesting situations like very cheap charging if there is a wind or solar oversupply (ERCOT pricing goes negative sometimes!), and it would tie the charger companies cost to the actual instantaneous cost of electricity, rather than an outdated demand charge method that was designed in a time when there were no realtime pricing markets. Right now the demand charges are unfair - the math was never meant to apply to these situations, so EA is being dramatically overcharged by the utilities.
 

Maquis

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The problem with these Francis chargers, is that they are $0.32 per minute no matter what speed. I came across a 50kw station and they still charge $0.32/min. Literally 2 blocks away a gas station had a chargepoint DCFC station and it was only charging $0.09/kwh. Still not sure how they are getting away with charging per kwh here in Oklahoma since its not legal.

Francis is great here because they are all over Oklahoma. Don't have to worry about charging anywhere in OK because of it. But they are expensive.
Good point - I'd only use a 50KW station that charges $0.32 per minute in an emergency.

$0.09/KwH is less than I pay at home - I'd use that all day long! I wasn't aware that they weren't allowed to bill by the KwH in OK.
 

RedStallion

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Not necessarily - there are some good financial use cases for onsite storage with EV chargers, and the cycle life these days is more like 5000-7000 if the banks are relatively large.
This is all wishful thinking. You can extend battery life by charging and discharging slower and ending up paying more for the larger batteries. The end result is the same, likely more expensive as you pay for extended cycle. Batteries is one of the worst means of storage both in terms of costs and pollution.
 

phidauex

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This is all wishful thinking. You can extend battery life by charging and discharging slower and ending up paying more for the larger batteries. The end result is the same, likely more expensive as you pay for extended cycle. Batteries is one of the worst means of storage both in terms of costs and pollution.
It's not wishful thinking - I operate actual systems doing this now, and I build a lot of utility scale storage including pumped hydro. Yes there are a lot of considerations to dial in the C-rates and thermal management, but current cells are much more robust than even a few years ago, use fewer rare earth metals, and are more efficient (benefiting from EV technology development, honestly).

There is a reason that lithium NMC and now LFP have taken over grid scale storage applications - they do work out to be cost effective over their life compared to other storage technologies currently available.
 

Kamuelaflyer

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Not sure it's a good assumption. My Toyota Tacoma gets 17 mpg, 19 on a good day.

Lot's of folks on here have ICE Mustangs -- far from efficient.
Took the words right out of my keyboard @ChasingCoral. My Tacoma is also 17 mpg.

Gas (regular with ethanol): $4.20 per gallon. Ethanol Free: $4.60 per gallon. That's an expensive fill-up every time. On the other hand, if I charge the car during mid-day at home: Free. Use Greenlots? Half a "tank" works out to about $16 out here.
 

benk016

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Good point - I'd only use a 50KW station that charges $0.32 per minute in an emergency.

$0.09/KwH is less than I pay at home - I'd use that all day long! I wasn't aware that they weren't allowed to bill by the KwH in OK.
Yeah, its definitely not legal here to "resell" electricity. That's why I'm not sure how they get away with it. OnCue gas stations have put in chargepoint stations at some locations around OKC, and every one of them they charge Time of Day pricing.

This 50kw station, My MME would max at 40kw. I unplugged after a minute when I saw what was going on.

Screenshot_20210601-180040_Gmail.jpg


Then I moved down 2 blocks to this station. IT was a 70kw station, but since it charges by the kwh it didn't really matter to me.

Screenshot_20210530-210920_ChargePoint.jpg


Screenshot_20210227-182515_ChargePoint.jpg
 

skiingj

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Not sure if this has been mentioned, and we're talking California... but CalTrans is beginning to install free charging stations that will work on most EVs. Currently most are in Sacramento area -- of course! But, this is the way to go. Subsidizing EVs is cool, but what really needs to work is charging.
I'm near SAC but can't find any of these CalTrans sites nearby. I found one near the Oregon border but that's it. The site I was using is: http://quickmap.dot.ca.gov/ Is there another?
 

121gigawatts

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Guys, Mach-E is a sporty SUV not comparable to the Escape.
Compare it to BMW X5 which have around the same 0-60 time.
Its MPG on highway is 26 mpg.
The Ford Escape trim I compared it to also has a 26mpg. That's the number I used to compare against the MME
 

AZBill

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It's not wishful thinking - I operate actual systems doing this now, and I build a lot of utility scale storage including pumped hydro. Yes there are a lot of considerations to dial in the C-rates and thermal management, but current cells are much more robust than even a few years ago, use fewer rare earth metals, and are more efficient (benefiting from EV technology development, honestly).

There is a reason that lithium NMC and now LFP have taken over grid scale storage applications - they do work out to be cost effective over their life compared to other storage technologies currently available.
Agreed. Tesla and Electrify America are both already installing batteries at many sites to even out the load. The goal is to have it at all of them, similar to the Tesla Power Wall concept. In fact it will be possible in the future to potentially use recycled car batteries for this purpose.

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AZBill

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The industry should standardize on charging. What exists now is an embarrassment for our computer age and it can't be scaled to millions of EVs they plan for the future.
The standards already exist, it is just a matter of getting the infrastructure and vehicles to support the standards. CCS is now the accepted standard for all non-Tesla vehicles as far as charging plugs and capabilities.

For Plug and Charge the published standard is ISO 15118-2. Today EA and Greenlots support that, but other charging companies have not yet supported it. From a vehicle side Ford and Porsche now support it, but no others yet. It will take a few years for everyone to support the standards, but that is coming.
 
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