Engineering Explained: If Gas Cars Are Banned, Can The Grid Handle Electric Cars?

[BlueMach]

I am waiting for the 2022 Outlander PHEV announcement on Tuesday. That car is expected to have 43 miles of electric range and bi directional charging. If they also add a 1500w AC outlet and 3500 lbs towing capacity, then I'll go for the Outlander. That would be the perfect car for camping and as back up power for my house.

If they fall short on expectations, then I'll go for the Mach E. I'll use Ford Options in case a better car comes along in 4 years. Hopefully Ford will still offer the $2500 incentive for Ford Options by that time.

The only problem with that is that PHEVs have engines. Engines = no sale for me.

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[DBC]

Ice storm right now in KY. Few areas without power. Some fellow ford workers using their f-150 hybrid to run some items at their house. Comes in pretty handy I would say.

Two words: Tesla Powerwall.

Runs the whole house. Every once in a while (like twice in the last year) the power goes out where we are and all the neighbors start texting about whether they can bring their meat and ice cream over.

But yes ice storms are the worst -- the dreaded pink "wintery mix". Give me snow any day. Makes power outages unavoidable, especially with overhead lines. And driving is just downright dangerous.

 

[BlueMach]

Two words: Tesla Powerwall.

Runs the whole house. Every once in a while (like twice in the last year) the power goes out where we are and all the neighbors start texting about whether they can bring their meat and ice cream over.

But yes ice storms are the worst -- the dreaded pink "wintery mix". Give me snow any day. Makes power outages unavoidable, especially with overhead lines. And driving is just downright dangerous.

Hopefully someday the Mach-E adds bidirectional charging and then the Mach-E can *be* the "Powerwall." That's the thing I was really hoping we'd see in the Mach-E, and will be the thing that will trigger me to replace it early if I can get it at a reasonable price soon.

 

[u/c]

Two words: Tesla Powerwall.

Runs the whole house. Every once in a while (like twice in the last year) the power goes out where we are and all the neighbors start texting about whether they can bring their meat and ice cream over.

But yes ice storms are the worst -- the dreaded pink "wintery mix". Give me snow any day. Makes power outages unavoidable, especially with overhead lines. And driving is just downright dangerous.

I requested a quote for a Powerwall last August. They wanted more than $20k for a 13 kWh power wall with installation. Even with a 30% tax credit, that is not worth it for a few days of power outages each year. It is better to get a manual transfer switch if you already have an F150 hybrid with a 7.2kW inverter.

 

[CHeil402]

I requested a quote for a Powerwall last August. They wanted more than $20k for a 13 kWh power wall with installation. Even with a 30% tax credit, that is not worth it for a few days of power outages each year. It is better to get a manual transfer switch if you already have an F150 hybrid with a 7.2kW inverter.

That price for Powerwalls has come down. We got Tesla Solar in 2020 and to add 2 Powerwalls (27 kWh battery capacity) it cost an additional $13,500 (including installation) - 26% tax credit = $9,990. That rivaled the cost of purchasing a generator for us and is totally worth it. The only thing worse than having no power is having solar panels and still having no power.

I was really hoping I could greatly increase our 'house battery' capacity by using the EV battery with reverse charging... even Tesla doesn't do it yet with their own equipment! That would definitely be a driving factor next time. Ford Options 3 years it is.

 

[wareagle1440]

I work for a Fortune 500 energy company and we've staked our future (and my personal career) on this promise. 24/7 carbon-free generation is closer than most people think, and the growth over the next few years in solar, wind and energy storage will dwarf the gains we've made in the last few.

The complex part, unfortunately, is that all this retooling will create a short-term carbon debt - it takes energy to make solar modules, wind turbine blades, and batteries, and there is no good way of getting around a short term increase in carbon output. But it is an investment in a longer duration with low carbon output over the next 30+ years.

So a friend's wife works on permitting, for her firm, on green energy deals and they've literally closed 10s of billions of dollars in deals in the last 12-18 months. You're exactly right. The tide is going that way. I imagine it would be hard to stop it now given the investment even a company like Xcel energy has dropped into just wind power here in Colorado.

 

[Raymondjram]

Jason doesn't use correct engineering notation when explaining energy numbers. One trillon kWh is better explained as one quadrillion Wh, or 10^12 Wh. Even better is using the correct energy measurement of energy as "joules". One joule (J) is one watt second. A kWh is 3.6 MJ ( 3.6 x 10^6 J), therefore one trillion kWh is correctly defined as 3.6 x 10^15 J.

I never liked anyone using too many zeroes or complicated descriptions, such as one trillon kilowatt-hours. If a layperson doesn't understand what a "joule" is, it our duty to educate them, and not follow the wrong descriptions of those who just want to look educated.

BTW, aircraft don't have "black boxes" at all. They carry flight recorders and they are colored international orange, never black. The term "black box" comes from military servicing terms of the past when fast repairs in the field required electronics to be "encapsulated" or " boxed" with just a part number, and the field mechanic just needed to remember which "black box" is replaced for a certain symptom or error. Educate others to think correctly.

 

[Raymondjram]

Most studies suggest yes, the grid can handle a huge transition to BEVs without issue, but time of use pricing will increase that number even more.

What gets me very excited is the potential of bidirectional charging. That's part of why I'm hesitant to buy the Mach-E outright and I'm leaning toward Ford Options - I want bidirectional charging as soon as possible.

Present utilities have surplus energy production, especially at night, because homes have more efficient appliances and illumination. This is when the majority of EV owners can charge from the home grid, and those same utilities can even give better rates if you ask.

As for returning your charge to use at your home, be sure your home system is ready ( transfer switch) and certified to do so, especially for blackouts and major power outages. This is one benefit of EVs with large batteries when done correctly, and may be a better sales point than installing a static battery bank.

 

[phidauex]

Jason doesn't use correct engineering notation when explaining energy numbers. One trillon kWh is better explained as one quadrillion Wh, or 10^12 Wh. Even better is using the correct energy measurement of energy as "joules". One joule (J) is one watt second. A kWh is 3.6 MJ ( 3.6 x 10^6 J), therefore one trillion kWh is correctly defined as 3.6 x 10^15 J.

I'd usually agree with you, but in this case the entire US electric industry is denominated in kWhs and MWhs, from home utility bills all the way up to the contracts between generators and utilities, and utilities and balancing authorities. So while it is an odd unit, it is appropriate when talking about the expansion of the US electric infrastructure.

 

[u/c]

That price for Powerwalls has come down. We got Tesla Solar in 2020 and to add 2 Powerwalls (27 kWh battery capacity) it cost an additional $13,500 (including installation) - 26% tax credit = $9,990. That rivaled the cost of purchasing a generator for us and is totally worth it. The only thing worse than having no power is having solar panels and still having no power.

I was really hoping I could greatly increase our 'house battery' capacity by using the EV battery with reverse charging... even Tesla doesn't do it yet with their own equipment! That would definitely be a driving factor next time. Ford Options 3 years it is.

Was that quote from Tesla? That is less than the current price for two pw by without installation. Pws are now $7,500. Maybe the installation was covered with the solar installation. I already had Tesla solar for five years.

I got quotes from 3rd party installers in Sep 2020 because Tesla did not respond until 3 months after I filled out everything online. One 3rd party installer quoted $14k for one pw with install, but did not respond when we wanted to get the contract. Another installer quoted more than $20k for a single pw with install.

 

[CHeil402]

Was that quote from Tesla? That is less than the current price for two pw by without installation. Pws are now $7,500. Maybe the installation was covered with the solar installation. I already had Tesla solar for five years.

I got quotes from 3rd party installers in Sep 2020 because Tesla did not respond until 3 months after I filled out everything online. One 3rd party installer quoted $14k for one pw with install, but did not respond when we wanted to get the contract. Another installer quoted more than $20k for a single pw with install.

That was my actual cost for my system that was installed in September 2020. The cost of the Powerwalls was $13k for 2 of them. Installation was $3k, but since it was installed with my solar, there was a $2,500 discount in installation, so total cost for just the Powerwall portion was $13k + $500 for installation.

EDIT: After looking on their website, it would seem they have raised the prices since I purchased the equipment. From their website today:

From my invoice:

 

[Maquis]

One of the simplest ways to speed up this whole transition would be to increase the U.S. motor fuel tax. This is far more effective at driving consumer decisions than using CAFE standards to dump the problem in the laps of the automobile manufacturers. Proceeds from the tax should then be used to build out (green) electrical infrastructure.

 

[UW2]

This thread is what I really appreciate about this forum

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