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EPA Range for Porsche Taycan is 201 Miles

J Duce

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This is definitely not a good look for Porsche. That said, I am hopeful (fingers crossed) that Ford's numbers were very conservative and that their engineers are looking for ways now to exceed expectation. I will say plus or minus 20 miles will not be a deal breaker for me. I just think that to maintain any level of credibility, they cannot make the same mistake as Porsche.
 

MachSpeed

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Porsche was at first saying 280 miles 201 is a big differents.
 

Blitz118

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It does not sound good for the Mach-E as it uses the same battery supplier LG Chem. I will wait to see what the EPA says, but I don't plan any long trips with the Mach-E and will use it more around town. So every time I leave my house, the battery will be full.
 

ejss

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IF the mach e has less range than has been advertised, I think it's going to be a no deal for me. The already suggested ranges should be the MINIMUM of what it offers.
 

2003MarionSSS

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IF the mach e has less range than has been advertised, I think it's going to be a no deal for me. The already suggested ranges should be the MINIMUM of what it offers.
I agree. The low range on the Taycan does not bode well at all for the Mach E since Ford is using the same battery technology from LG Chem and that's with a base price of $160,000. Total deal breaker for me if the same thing happens to the Mach E. The Volvo XC40 Recharge has crappy range as well with a 78 KWH battery and an estimated 200 mile range. It will be interesting if Volvo can improve on that with the Polestar 2 which has the same platform as the XC40.
 

silverelan

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Well now. Certainly not a good look for Porsche. Everybody knew their WLTP estimated range was optimistic compared to what the EPA would report, but I didn't expect it to be this bad.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/31443...falls-way-short-of-advertised-figure-says-epa
Something weird is going on here. Let's take three things we know and see how they square up.

1) Reviewers were taking the Taycan out for some hard drives. Going from sea level to nearly 8000' of elevation on the Angeles Crest Highway. Here's what was said about the Taycan's range:
a. Ben Sullins from Teslanomics - estimated range of 270 miles (video link)
b. Tom Voelk from Driven (New York Times) - 24% state of charge remaining after 180 miles
c. Tom Moloughney from InsideEVs - estimated range of 249 miles for Taycan Turbo
d. Third Party firm AMCI Testing - independent test protocols show Taycan is 275 miles​

2) EPA Range is 201 miles.

3) Porsche stands by their car's performance and the subsequent rating.

Porsche accepts the lowball EPA rating yet multiple reviewers blew away the EPA range while doing hard acceleration and handling tests on closed roads on a 180mi route through the San Gabriel Mountains.

So either all of the reviewers were driving some magical Taycans or Porsche is sandbagging the EPA rating. It's a mystery to me and it's weird that nobody is putting 2 + 2 together on this.

What do you think is going on?
 

silverelan

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From the article...
"If you do some backwards math and take the Taycan’s 201 mile de-rated EPA range estimate and divide it by the 0.7 de-rating factor, you get 287 miles. That means the Taycan must have achieved an estimated range of 287 mile on the EPA’s two-cycle test..."

Sounds like what I suspected, Porsche is totally sandbagging the EPA numbers.
 

cometguy

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Again, people who buy the Taycan will be very different from people who buy the Mach-E, for the most part. (There may well be some households that come to own one of each, but those will probably be few and far between.) Most BEV buyers in 2020 and 2021 will be as they have been the past decade: people who use them mostly for local driving (work commuting, shopping, errands, going out for entertainment, restaurants, etc.) and keep at least one other vehicle in the household that has an ICE in it for longer trips out of town. People who own Porsches that cost over $100k do not usually take them on long out-of-town road trips (they mostly fly, or take a train or use an ICE vehicle), and so they won't care if the Taycan gets only 200-250 miles of range, because they'll be using their Taycans almost exclusively without resorting to public chargers (like most BEV owners today, they'll do 95%-99% of their charging at home). With my PHEV, the only place other than home that I've ever charged at (in over a year) is the dealership; I leave my charge cables at home always. Same with my friend who owns a Model S P100D as his only car (his wife has an ICEV); he only charges at home, at work, and at their summer home that's 100 miles from their main home, and he says he never has range anxiety. I doubt that more than 5% of BEV owners in America use public chargers located at Walmarts or along interstate highways.

Mach-E owners may be more likely to take their vehicle on long road trips, but even still -- like Tesla owners -- I'd guess that fewer than 5% of such owners will do so. The vast majority of Mach-E owners will only charge at home (though this could change for Mach-E buyers in 2020 who keep their cars for 10 years, as public charging becomes much more common in the coming decade). People who buy BEVs have to consider how they will charge their cars, and people without an easy way to do so at home (meaning, basically, a garage) will not buy a BEV. But for those who can charge every night at home in their garage, BEVs llike the Mach-E (and Taycan, and Polestar 2, and e-tron, and Teslas, and Chevy Bolt, etc.) can be very enticing for all driving within a hundred miles of home. Not having to go to gas stations, and just plugging in at home, is priceless; most people buying BEVs today don't calculate how much gas money they'll be saving, because that's not the primary reason for buying a BEV (it will be in the future for people struggling to survive from pay check to pay check, of course): most people buy BEVs now because they are really fun to drive and because they get you away from gas stations, and they are much cheaper in the long run to own and maintain -- and, indeed, this is why I bought my PHEV (I found that I save about $100/month in fuel costs in going from an ICE-only vehicle for daily driving to my PHEV, in electricity vs. gasoline costs, but this savings isn't why I bought the PHEV).

I also think that the real-world range for the Taycan 4S (and the forthcoming rumored Taycan RWD and Taycan 4, which should both have starting MSRP in the $85k-$100k range) will be around 220-260 miles, at least with the 93-kWh battery pack. The jalopnik explanation (URL link provided above) for the low EPA rating seems reasonable, and numerous online reviewers have found better range figures (both in the LA area and in FInland on snowy roads). Most people buying the Taycan will buy the much-less-expensive trims, not the Turbo and Turbo S. Oh, and the Macan BEV (smaller Porsche SUV) is due out in a couple of years, presumably for much less money than the Taycan, and by then the engineers may have upped the range even further. The Macan BEV will be a direct competitor to the Mach-E (at least the top model Mach-E) in terms of pricing.
 
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buzznwood

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The taycan is made to do repeated full bore launches in all weather conditions, and has fat tires with proper rubber not eco bicycle wheels and low resistance rubber so its energy usage footprint is far beyond the typical ev.

As with all ev your range is really going to be all over the place depending on time of year and how your drive and until we get real work values from people it is hard to know what we will be getting from the mach-e which of course make everyone that has reserved a range guinea pig :(.

This article is interesting https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/advice/electric-cars-best-real-world-range in that the model 3 performance gets is below its 300+ mile range in real world driving, tesla compared to most will push the battery to the limits then dial back the range later but by then everyone just remember the initial range estimate, I suspect the legacy auto manufactures to take a conservative approach and then up the limits over time you can already see this with the e-tron and i-pace getting range bumps but everyone just remembers the initial lower limit.
 

J Duce

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One thing I cannot understand is the EPA tests are not new to auto companies. So when they are publishing their expected range, why do they not put their cars through the same battery of tests they know that EPA will run them through? I am not a company executive and I am not in the engineering or marketing folks shoes, but if I were, I would require this test (as well as a real world use test) to make sure that it is as close as possible to the EPA -- especially since majority of people use this as their guide when factoring whether to purchase. That said, as long as the First Edition stays about 230 range, I am good since I commute drive about 28 miles per day and do slightly more some weekends.

What are some thoughts on whether there is a deal breaker for you? I am still very hopeful for the Mach-E success and I cannot wait to see it personally and drive off with one.
 

Brianbarn

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I think it's several months too soon to worry about any of this. When final specifications and ratings become available they can be evaluated and decisions made.
 

cometguy

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One thing I cannot understand is the EPA tests are not new to auto companies. So when they are publishing their expected range, why do they not put their cars through the same battery of tests they know that EPA will run them through? I am not a company executive and I am not in the engineering or marketing folks shoes, but if I were, I would require this test (as well as a real world use test) to make sure that it is as close as possible to the EPA -- especially since majority of people use this as their guide when factoring whether to purchase.
I would not be surprised if the EPA has drastically changed their evaluation for EVs in the last two years, given that the Trump administration is so anti-EV. The White House and Republicans are avidly promoting fossil-fuel energy much more than the previous administration, and they just refused to extend the $7500 tax credit for another 200k-400k miles to help Tesla and GM (and other automakers like Ford and Toyota that will soon reach the current 200k-mile limit for tax credits). Would you put it past the EPA to have downgraded all EV ranges "somehow", to try hurting the EV revolution? I'm very skeptical of the EPA figure for the Taycan, given what other sources are finding.
 



 









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