Mach-Lee

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I just had an electrician come over today and give me a bid for Nema 14-50 garage install. Unfortunately, I found this thread after he left. I will text him to clarify that proper gauge and receptacle are included. I'm worried because his quote seemed relatively affordable at 1k. I think I may just buy the Bryant and give it to him when he returns next week. Anyone know what box and plate should be purchased with it?

Also...make fun, it's fine.. I have an idiot question(s).

1. When you say proper torque is vital, which screws on the installation are you talking about? Just in case I want to check when he leaves.

2. My run appears pretty long to get the box centered in my garage. I'd guess close to 50 feet (max) unless he can go through the ceiling. It sounds like some have suggested 4 gauge with a run this long. Assuming his quote is 6, how much more should I expect him to charge if I want 4 gauge?

TIA
Torque on the wire clamping screws on the back of the outlet.

6 gauge is fine for 50 feet. You don’t have to upsize until you get to 100’ or more. 4 ga will be a lot more since it isn’t used commonly. Make sure he’s using copper wire though, not aluminum.
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mattmiz

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Adding this just as a caution to other folks I guess. I live in AZ, where yes it gets hot and never as hot as this year. Even so, I had no idea what to be looking out for in terms of EV charging, or that I even need to be looking for anything at all. Lesson learned.

A bit over a year ago I had a licensed electrician put in a 50A/240V breaker, run 6/3 wire and hook it all up to a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage (Leviton, which I didn't even know to vet, and was ultimately probably the mistake).

I did at one point a month or so ago get a flashing red LED on the Grizzl-E (something about bad ground) but that ultimately reset and didn't reappear, which is weird in and of itself. Today, saw the car wasn't charging and the Grizzl-E was dead, so I checked the breaker, which was tripped. Tried to reset it but wasn't happening. So, turned it off and pulled the plug. Pulling the plug alone was much harder than it should've been, which was a pretty big tell. Finally got it off, and this was the result:

Ford Mustang Mach-E EV Charger Risks: Home Charging Installation Risks and Advice [by Munro Live] IMG_3363
Ford Mustang Mach-E EV Charger Risks: Home Charging Installation Risks and Advice [by Munro Live] IMG_3365


Oooof. As if that wasn't bad enough, I pulled the outlet cover off and removed the outlet and saw this:

Ford Mustang Mach-E EV Charger Risks: Home Charging Installation Risks and Advice [by Munro Live] IMG_3371


Suffice to say, I feel really lucky that my garage and car didn't burn down. At this point, I guess I am going to have to run entirely new wire from the panel to the outlet (because the stuff in the box is clearly compromised) as well as a new outlet (NOT Leviton) and cover, but all told still cheaper than what could've been. And, will be knocking the amperage down to 32 from 40 and adding a heat sensor directly above.

Anyway, my advice is if you get ANY warning lights at all ever, shut off the breaker, pull things apart, and see what is going on. Then read the forums, do your homework, caveat emptor, etc. and be safe out there.
 

Scooby24

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Another leviton from a "licensed professional" bites the dust. Sorry to hear man. These guys gotta start figuring this out.
 

Mach-Lee

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Another leviton from a "licensed professional" bites the dust. Sorry to hear man. These guys gotta start figuring this out.
Yeah, I'm not sure why there isn't a class-action lawsuit against Leviton for their defective 14-50 outlets.
 

21st Century Pony

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May I suggest hard-wiring the Grizzly? We did our two units (at Sonny Boy's house and my house).

Glad you caught this before a tragedy happened.
 


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Yeah, I'm not sure why there isn't a class-action lawsuit against Leviton for their defective 14-50 outlets.
I’ve debated this issue with some really knowledgeable guys on an electrical forum. One of the guys is on the NEC Code panel and is well-versed in UL standards and testing. When I pointed out that these $10 Leviton receptacles were melting, he pointed out that they are UL listed and have passes all the tests. The test includes a maximum temperature rise specification the Leviton passed easily.

My contention is that these tests are all performed on brand new devices. The test procedure does not require any extended thermal or mechanical cycling. These thing clearly degrade due to both the thermal and mechanical cycling of daily continuous use. The gradual degradation eventually results in thermal runaway and meltdown.

Before EVSEs, the only common use for a 14-50 was for RVs which is a non-continuous load that’s a fraction of an EVSE. They worked fine for that for 50 years.

I don’t put much blame on the installing electrician unless they have either experienced this or otherwise were informed about the issue. Electricians I know will only install listed equipment and when they do, they should be able to feel confident that the installation is reliable and safe.

The only way to fix this will be to change the UL standard and testing procedure.
 

Mach-e4x

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I’ve debated this issue with some really knowledgeable guys on an electrical forum. One of the guys is on the NEC Code panel and is well-versed in UL standards and testing. When I pointed out that these $10 Leviton receptacles were melting, he pointed out that they are UL listed and have passes all the tests. The test includes a maximum temperature rise specification the Leviton passed easily.

My contention is that these tests are all performed on brand new devices. The test procedure does not require any extended thermal or mechanical cycling. These thing clearly degrade due to both the thermal and mechanical cycling of daily continuous use. The gradual degradation eventually results in thermal runaway and meltdown.

Before EVSEs, the only common use for a 14-50 was for RVs which is a non-continuous load that’s a fraction of an EVSE. They worked fine for that for 50 years.

I don’t put much blame on the installing electrician unless they have either experienced this or otherwise were informed about the issue. Electricians I know will only install listed equipment and when they do, they should be able to feel confident that the installation is reliable and safe.

The only way to fix this will be to change the UL standard and testing procedure.
Yes the testing needs to be updated for real word operation.
My Grizzly is just inside my garage and if the garage door is open during the day the sun will shine directly on the charger for a couple of hours or so, I'm sure the Grizzly would get too hot if I had my car charging during that time.
 

kennethjk

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I’ve debated this issue with some really knowledgeable guys on an electrical forum. One of the guys is on the NEC Code panel and is well-versed in UL standards and testing. When I pointed out that these $10 Leviton receptacles were melting, he pointed out that they are UL listed and have passes all the tests. The test includes a maximum temperature rise specification the Leviton passed easily.

My contention is that these tests are all performed on brand new devices. The test procedure does not require any extended thermal or mechanical cycling. These thing clearly degrade due to both the thermal and mechanical cycling of daily continuous use. The gradual degradation eventually results in thermal runaway and meltdown.

Before EVSEs, the only common use for a 14-50 was for RVs which is a non-continuous load that’s a fraction of an EVSE. They worked fine for that for 50 years.

I don’t put much blame on the installing electrician unless they have either experienced this or otherwise were informed about the issue. Electricians I know will only install listed equipment and when they do, they should be able to feel confident that the installation is reliable and safe.

The only way to fix this will be to change the UL standard and testing procedure.
I would take a different view and blame the installing electrician who should be familiar with EVs and if not turn down the job.

learn how to do a job properly or don’t do it at all.

my electrician in Fl read up about it before he did my installation. He was going to use an Eaton which is much better than cheapo stuff but I had him use the Hubbel I bought anyway.
 

21st Century Pony

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...
My Grizzly is just inside my garage and if the garage door is open during the day the sun will shine directly on the charger for a couple of hours or so, I'm sure the Grizzly would get too hot if I had my car charging during that time.
There are simple, proven ways to shield such equipment... often used reliably for remote weather station sensors as an example.

Depending on your garage setup, two medium-gauge steel plates no wider than the Grizzl-E, mounted vertically between it and the (open) door with about 1.5 inch space between them, would more than adequately shield the Grizzl-E from sun-caused heat buildup. Hope this is helpful.
 

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Yeah, I'm not sure why there isn't a class-action lawsuit against Leviton for their defective 14-50 outlets.
It's not just cheap 14-50 outlets that are a problem, people with Level 1 EVSEs also have meltdown/fault issues with cheap 5-15s and 5-20s outlets. I recommend heavy duty hospital grade 20A 5-20s be used even on a 15A breaker. Recommended my in-laws do this when they bought a plug-in hybrid that came with a Level 1 EVSE and they did. I sleep better.
 

Mrn

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Didn't see it mentioned here, but Dielectric grease is an important part of a reliable, long lasting, safe connection. It may be counter intuitive to put an insulating grease on connections, but it's worked well for me and others on permanent connections.

Is dielectric grease Ok to use on household electrical connections?

Yes, dielectric grease is generally acceptable for most electrical connections. It's formulated to lubricate and protect electrical connections from corrosion.

Dielectric grease can also:

Create a proper seal
Help create extra insulation
Prevent arcing
Seal out water and air
Prevent galvanic and general corrosion
Prevent oxidation.

...and I personally know this, having used a 40 amp 220V charger so treated for several years with no faults.
 

21st Century Pony

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Didn't see it mentioned here, but Dielectric grease is an important part of a reliable, long lasting, safe connection. It may be counter intuitive to put an insulating grease on connections, but it's worked well for me and others on permanent connections.

Is dielectric grease Ok to use on household electrical connections?

Yes, dielectric grease is generally acceptable for most electrical connections. It's formulated to lubricate and protect electrical connections from corrosion.

Dielectric grease can also:

Create a proper seal
Help create extra insulation
Prevent arcing
Seal out water and air
Prevent galvanic and general corrosion
Prevent oxidation.

...and I personally know this, having used a 40 amp 220V charger so treated for several years with no faults.
+1.

Another great product used by electronics hobbyists and sold at good electric supply stores is a spray called DeOxyIt. It cleans and then protectively coats electric conductor surfaces against oxidation. I use it all the time on motorcycle and car circuits.
 
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Mrn

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+1.

Another great product used by electronics hobbyists and sold at good electric supply stores is a spray called DeOxyIt. It cleans and then protectively coats electric conductor surfaces against oxidation. I use it all the time on motorcycle and car circuits.
Is it similar to the contact cleaner sold in red or blue spray cans at hardware stores?
 

21st Century Pony

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Is it similar to the contact cleaner sold in red or blue spray cans at hardware stores?
I think it's better.
 

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Didn't see it mentioned here, but Dielectric grease is an important part of a reliable, long lasting, safe connection. It may be counter intuitive to put an insulating grease on connections, but it's worked well for me and others on permanent connections.
Yes, a good suggestion. I did use dielectric grease on my self-installed connections on my 50 amp EVSE circuit to the NEMA 14-50 plug. I also put a thin coating on the JuiceBox 40 plug blades. I checked the temp of the connections recently and everthing is “cool”.
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