dbsb3233

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I can't even believe we're entertaining charging time as a real thing when it comes to EVs. These companies should focus on making the car itself and standardize their battery cooling system designs, then team with battery makers to make the battery pack hot swappable. In reality, the winning team is going to be the one that can team with big oil to use their properties (gas stations) to house battery pack swap buildings. You drive your EV in, the robot hot swaps your battery pack. You drive away at 100%. In and out in 1 minute or less. To do this takes cunning and forethought and money. But if you do it, you kill any other brand making cars that charge at a station for 20-60 mins. They're dead.
That's problematic for compact vehicles that are designed to take advantage of every inch. That's why the batteries usually get built into the bottom frame now.

Plus they cost a fortune. And weigh a ton (or half a ton). It would take a pretty big operation to handle swaps, even if they were standardized. And frankly, it's not really necessary. BEVs will overwhelmingly be home-charge vehicles for people. And for that usage they're great just the way they are.

I have wondered about tat concept for large trucking though. Swap-out battery stations along fixed routes for commercial trucking could make some sense.
 

LYTMCQ

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If you could just have a station swap your battery, there's no need to worry. If you didn't want to stop, you wouldn't need to stop any longer than a minute.
Just doesn't pencil out from the $2M in battery inventory for each EV make and each model of each make, the huge mass weight of that inventory, the handling equipment, the time just maneuvering the cars not counting the actual swap time and check out. Will Shell swap a Chevron battery...it just goes on and on vs. 10 minute EV full recharge.
 
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dbsb3233

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Keep in mind a battery pack with good range still costs $15k-$20k, and weights half a ton. Would almost be more practical just to swap out the whole car.
 

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Most people in cities don't have the option to just park it at a charger all night. I don't have the electrical layout to support a charger without spending on it. We're still talking about spending minutes waiting to charge. It's still dumb. Why cant I just pull into the EV equivalent of a Chevron and get a battery swap and get going? That company will win.
 

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Most people in cities don't have the option to just park it at a charger all night. I don't have the electrical layout to support a charger without spending on it."
I don't have home charging. Live on Tesla SCs and EA and EVgo. Works great and it's getting better al the time, Tesla is upgrading to 250kW (1,000 mph) from 150kw (600 mph) and EA is 350kW and 150kW already.

We're still talking about spending minutes waiting to charge. It's still dumb. Why cant I just pull into the EV equivalent of a Chevron and get a battery swap and get going?
Because you have a Shell battery from a 2019 Kona EV and Chevron doesn't have one in stock and wouldn't take Shell's anyway.

Because the swap is going to take longer than the charge.

Because the cost is WILDLY prohibitive.

Because the weight is wildly prohibitive.

Is swapping out gas tanks better than filling them?
 

dbsb3233

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You are right that home charging is the key and range issues tend to disappear on the day to day usage if you have home charging. I'm an outlier with no home charging, dependent on public charging.

Closer to 70% of car owners are homeowners so EV's should work for 70% easy, just 2% have done it to date.
I'm cutting that 70% in half as only the 2nd car in the household though, so they still have an ICE to use on longer drives. Or PHEV. That will probably become the popular option for many of those that only have 1 vehicle.

BEV sales are only 2% to date because (other than Tesla) the 200+ mile BEVs that make it more viable have only started to come out now. And battery production is still limiting output. That should ramp up through the 2020's though.

The other problem, of course, is the high up-front price premium. But that's gradually coming down too. Even with tax credits, a Mach-e with desireable specs (Premium) is $45k+. That's a pricey vehicle.
 

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I'm cutting that 70% in half as only the 2nd car in the household though, so they still have an ICE to use on longer drives.
Or double it as it is as easy to charge two cars if you have a home with driveway so each home could support 2-4 EV's.
 
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The way China is doing it makes more sense than how we in the "free market" United States are doing it. Lots of companies can make batteries lighter or more energy dense per unit of space and will over time, but once a battery is built into the car, you can't swap it without expense. Gas stations have 3 grades of gas, all that fuel has to be stored on site. Thousands of gallons weighing tons. What's your point? We could have 3 sizes or 4 sizes depending on overall vehicle size. What's the overall size difference between a Hyundai Tucson and a Ford Escape and a Toyota Rav4? Not much. What's the overall size difference between a Ford F-150, a Toyota Tundra and a Nissan Titan? Not a lot. Not enough to say we can't standardize sizes of batteries. The problem is that companies won't do it. China will. And will make us look foolish in the process.
 

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The way China is doing it makes more sense than how we in the "free market" United States are doing it.
China and US and EU are all currently based on EV charging stations which have worked well in EU.

There is no current battery swap in China by an EV. The article above was one of those "Mechanics Illustrated" "Flying Cars to Take Over" kind of headlines.

Fast battery charging has pretty much blown it up. Already the networks are in the 600-1,000 mph charging rates that match gas station visits.
 

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Keep in mind a battery pack with good range still costs $15k-$20k, and weights half a ton. Would almost be more practical just to swap out the whole car.
Hvb cost are dropping toward 100 bucks per kW. Stated by a number of auto executives
 

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Or double it as it is as easy to charge two cars if you have a home with driveway so each home could support 2-4 EV's.
The point is people wanting an ICE for any longer drives.
 

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FWIW, this thread is exactly why the average Joe isn't shopping for a BEV .. it is just too confusing to understand charging. I really wish Ford or heck someone would just simplify it. Allegedly, Sync 4 will, I guess we'll see.
As someone whose new to EV charging it can be daunting with all this information. However, like some others have said it can be simple and most people won't need to know all these details.

One thing BEVs can hang there hat on is that Electricity is Electricity and doesn't have different grades/additives/seasonal blends, etc. Though most of us with ICE vehicles just put in whatever is recommended by the manufacturer.
 

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The way China is doing it makes more sense than how we in the "free market" United States are doing it. Lots of companies can make batteries lighter or more energy dense per unit of space and will over time, but once a battery is built into the car, you can't swap it without expense. Gas stations have 3 grades of gas, all that fuel has to be stored on site. Thousands of gallons weighing tons. What's your point? We could have 3 sizes or 4 sizes depending on overall vehicle size. What's the overall size difference between a Hyundai Tucson and a Ford Escape and a Toyota Rav4? Not much. What's the overall size difference between a Ford F-150, a Toyota Tundra and a Nissan Titan? Not a lot. Not enough to say we can't standardize sizes of batteries. The problem is that companies won't do it. China will. And will make us look foolish in the process.
Ok, let's game this scenario:
  1. I buy a brand new BEV and decide to go on a road trip
  2. On the last leg of that road trip my brand new battery with 1 charge cycle gets swapped out with 5 year old pack that has been abused and only has 80% of its original capacity
  3. Now when I get home and I charge at home, I find the range on my brand new car is 80% of what the manufacturer said it would be. Do I have a legitimate beef with the car manufacturer, and what are my options to redress the issue?
  4. I then have an malfunction wherein both motors overload/burnout and have to be replaced in my brand new car. After analysis, it seems the battery could have been the culprit. Should the BEV manufacturer have to pay for the repair under warranty? Should I? How do we prove whose fault it is?
When you are talking simple and inexpensive components like a propane tank, swapping makes sense because a brand new one is only $20-$30 and a used one is worth only $15 less so who cares? When you're talking THE CRITICAL PART of a $50,000 it is a really bad idea
 

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