statseeker

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The fact that you put a price of $50k on an electric vehicle shows you don't understand the typical American budget. Most people aren't looking for a $50k car. Only debt backs cars at $50k for most Americans. Bring it down to 20k for the car and let someone else worry about the battery pack. China's gonna eat our lunch while we're trying to figure out charging rates and plugs. "But I take good care of my battery and don't abuse it." With swap stations, who cares? Swap stations would figure out if the batteries were bad or good or what capacity they have or how many cells are dead and would manage their batteries. If 300 out of 10000 individual cells are losing their capacity due to charging, you can replace them. Once they're replaced, the pack is like new. Once every so often the tech will improve and the design and capacity and energy density of the cells will improve. Why should I have to buy a whole new EV car if my battery goes bad?
 

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LOL! Some people just can't figure out reality no matter how many times someone hits them in the head with it. :)
 

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LOL! Some people just can't figure out reality no matter how many times someone hits them in the head with it. :)
yup. Clearly the reality that EV batteries cannot be a commodity part in 2020 due to economics, cooling, form factor, electrical characteristics and the fact that battery size/performance is THE PRIMARY TECHNICAL DISTINCTION among brands is being wholly ignored in favor of "a great idea".
 

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What do you guys make of his answer to this question about high powered charging?

do you really think that anyone would put that much extra copper wire in a car to support 350kW and not use it? DCFC rates destroy batteries, and Tesla is pretty much the only vehicle OEM that has as much parallel cell structure to avoid catastrophic damage from DCFC rates like that.

I read it two ways. Either they aren't going to go more than 150kW because it'll kill the batteries or they've wired it to handle 350kW but may be conservative in winding up the wattage.

Which way do you read it?
I read it as 'we said 150kW because that's what we can do' meaning it'd be dumb to put all the stuff for 350kw in there and then not use it. and then uses the discussion about battery destruction to justify 150 vs 350 kw, while tipping his hat to the more advanced design of the Tesla battery
 

ElectricRS

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There are so many misconceptions about Tesla's... let's not be make Mach-E versus Tesla into a Ford vs Chevy battle. Tesla is considerably ahead, they earned it the hard way, and importantly they have paved the way in public attitudes for electrics. And their battery life is a known quantity after several years on the road and it is excellent and along with range is class-leading (compare to the lousy range of the Taycan).
The Mach-E is an unknown and it is a 1st effort. It's battery chemistry is also an unknown and chemistry is a critical question. There is lot's to learn here, and granted their engineering (and software!) groups have made a formidable effort. As a life-long Ford enthusiast I recognize that, but also that the launch event was an awkward bust and they need to get better. So now let's look for (and expect) milestones before the 1st delivery at the end of this year or later.
 
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ElectricRS

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So interesting in this interview, BTW, that S650 is now S750 - and that a next-gen Mustang had to be "saved". The ICE Mustang was supposed to get a hybrid model, and whether that was S550 or S650 was an unknown. Perhaps on S650 since that was originally supposed to hit market this year or next, and the all-new D6 platform has room for a small battery pack (as in the Explorer and Aviator platform mates). Where is it?
I know gas/electric hybrids are not the topic for this forum... but in terms of winning people over to the benefits of instant torque and to help the acceptance of full-electric Mustangs by the ICE people, be it Mach-E or an electric coupe (the Mustang Lithium should help here if anybody in the press ever gets a chance to try it), a hybrid Mustang would help.
 

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I read it as 'we said 150kW because that's what we can do' meaning it'd be dumb to put all the stuff for 350kw in there and then not use it. and then uses the discussion about battery destruction to justify 150 vs 350 kw, while tipping his hat to the more advanced design of the Tesla battery
Yeah, I'm pretty convinced now that the 150kW power draw is the limit for the 99kWh MMEs. The published times of 47 miles per 10 minutes and 45 minutes to go from 10% to 80% is basically a mirror of Tesla's Model S/X charge times on their 100kWh packs.

Based on the redditor's AMA answers that later got deleted on the Mustang Mach-E's target specs, he said that people will be happy with the Mach-E's production specs on the range, charging and acceleration.
 

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There are so many misconceptions about Tesla's... let's not be make Mach-E versus Tesla into a Ford vs Chevy battle. Tesla is considerably ahead, they earned it the hard way, and importantly they have paved the way in public attitudes for electrics. And their battery life is a known quantity after several years on the road and it is excellent and along with range is class-leading (compare to the lousy range of the Taycan).
The Mach-E is an unknown and it is a 1st effort. It's battery chemistry is also an unknown and chemistry is a critical question. There is lot's to learn here, and granted their engineering (and software!) groups have made a formidable effort. As a life-long Ford enthusiast I recognize that, but also that the launch event was an awkward bust and they need to get better. So now let's look for (and expect) milestones before the 1st delivery at the end of this year or later.
Just like the Bolt EV, the Mustang Mach-E uses pouch cells from LG Chem. I'm pretty confident we'll see the same degradation as the Bolt EV's which has been on par with the Tesla Model 3's.
 

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The published times of 47 miles per 10 minutes and 45 minutes to go from 10% to 80% is basically a mirror of Tesla's Model S/X charge times on their 100kWh packs.
211 miles in 45 minutes is slow and hopefully Ford did not underachieve on the charging. Using my LR AWD 310 mile/75kWh battery as an example. S/X are not good examples as they are old tech and can only charge max at 200kWh rater vs. Model 3's 250kWh max rate.

First 10 minutes in Model 3 with battery at 10%, I'll get 140kwh/587 mph rate for first 10 minutes. 59 miles to Ford's stated 47 miles. Depending on the tech, the EV will start ramping the fast charge down. 30% for Model 3 drops to 100kWh. 50% on Audi, Porsche drops to 100kWh. Audi, Porsche are in the 75 mile/10 minute.

Tesla, Porsche, Audi, et al are building cars to take 350kW fast charge and the EA charging network has the chargers to handle it. 150kWh is the baseline charging speed for new EV's. Be interesting to see details going forward. It will definitely be an issue along with range vs. Model Y.
 
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s7davis

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What do you guys make of his answer to this question about high powered charging?

do you really think that anyone would put that much extra copper wire in a car to support 350kW and not use it? DCFC rates destroy batteries, and Tesla is pretty much the only vehicle OEM that has as much parallel cell structure to avoid catastrophic damage from DCFC rates like that.

I read it two ways. Either they aren't going to go more than 150kW because it'll kill the batteries or they've wired it to handle 350kW but may be conservative in winding up the wattage.

Which way do you read it?
I took this statement as they put all the hardware needed to support the higher rate charging (Fast Charging). However, will only use the 150 rate for now until but all MAch E will have the equipment standard to support the 350 rate but probably will not be used until a future software update.

Plus since they are partnering with EA wouldn't make much since to have a car that will not support the speeds of their DC Fast charging stations. So I will say that all future EVs will probably have the hardware necessary to support the 350kwh charge rate because that is a major selling point on EVs is the charging times.

However as people already know it only charges at that rate for like 10 or 15 minutes if the battery is almost out of juice. IT will charge that fast until battery is at maybe 20% then it will start to trickle down and continue trickling down as the battery pack gets charged up. Everyone will notice this once you get your EV if you don't already have one and take it to a charging station. This is to help preserve the batteries as long as possible.
 

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211 miles in 45 minutes is slow and hopefully Ford did not underachieve on the charging. Using my LR AWD 310 mile/75kWh battery as an example. S/X are not good examples as they are old tech and can only charge max at 200kWh rater vs. Model 3's 250kWh max rate.

First 10 minutes in Model 3 with battery at 10%, I'll get 140kwh/587 mph rate for first 10 minutes. 59 miles to Ford's stated 47 miles. Depending on the tech, the EV will start ramping the fast charge down. 30% for Model 3 drops to 100kWh. 50% on Audi, Porsche drops to 100kWh. Audi, Porsche are in the 75 mile/10 minute.

Tesla, Porsche, Audi, et al are building cars to take 350kW fast charge and the EA charging network has the chargers to handle it. 150kWh is the baseline charging speed for new EV's. Be interesting to see details going forward. It will definitely be an issue along with range vs. Model Y.
It takes about 30 minutes for a Model 3 to charge to 80% on a 150kW charger. If Ford benchmarked the Mach-E against the charging time of a Tesla 100D with the goal to meet/beat the time by say 10%, we'd looking at around 40mins to get to 80%.

Ford won't be able to meet the Tesla Model 3 but it should match or beat the Model S/X out of the charging station with a range that's close to a Model S 90D or Model X 100D.

Even so, you're looking at a 10 minute difference over 400-450 miles of driving if you figure 250mi for the first leg and 200 miles of driving after the subsequent recharge stop. That's not a huge difference considering the amount of time spent driving that distance.

 

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Ford won't be able to meet the Tesla Model 3 but it should match or beat the Model S/X out of the charging station with a range that's close to a Model S 90D or Model X 100D.
You are comparing 2020 Mach-E to 2012 Tesla tech of S/X. With Model Y Tesla doing better on range 320 vs. 270 and faster charging, 30 minutes vs. 45 minutes and faster acceleration and for lower sticker price and with Tesla public charging built out. Have to be realistic.

Doubt most looking at EV will be as concerned with the AP issues, door/window issues, MCU/Flash drive issues. rocker cover issues, UI issues as myself so Ford would be wise to step up on charging if it can at this point is production.
 
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You are comparing 2020 Mach-E to 2012 Tesla tech of S/X. With Model Y Tesla doing better on range 320 vs. 270 and faster charging, 30 minutes vs. 45 minutes and faster acceleration and for lower sticker price and with Tesla public charging built out. Have to be realistic.

Doubt most looking at EV will be as concerned with the AP issues, door/window issues, MCU/Flash drive issues. rocker cover issues, UI issues as myself so Ford would be wise to step up on charging if it can at this point is production.
I'm comparing the charging of the MME against Tesla's lineup on 150kW charging. The Mach-E gives up 10 mins against the Y (presuming it's the same as TM3) and no time against a modern Tesla S/X.

The 2012 Model S 85 charges at like 90-110kW (remember, the original Supercharger was 90kW and upgraded to 120kW on V2). The 90kWh pack does up to 130kWish for a short time. Again, its time and the 100kWh pack to 80% is 45 mins.

I have found no evidence that the Raven S/X with its E-revision pack charges any faster than the D-revision or earlier. If you can find someone posting their Raven charging session getting more than 150kW and getting to 80% from a 10% state of charge, I'd love to see it.

 

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I have found no evidence that the Raven S/X with its E-revision pack charges any faster than the D-revision or earlier.
Yes...S and X are old tech in regard to charging which is why I suggested looking at Audi or Mercedes and Model 3 on being competitive on charging rate on current tech.

There are changes being made to the battery, cooling and charging systems to get the Model S/X's up to Model 3, Audi, Merc standards so we'll see.

For Mach E to be competitive, it will need to have capability of utilizing 150kW charges and per Ford's data to date, it is not competitive on charging. Early days so we'll see what happens with a Mach-E at 10% battery plugged into a 150kW EA charger.
 

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You are comparing 2020 Mach-E to 2012 Tesla tech of S/X. With Model Y Tesla doing better on range 320 vs. 270 and faster charging, 30 minutes vs. 45 minutes and faster acceleration and for lower sticker price and with Tesla public charging built out. Have to be realistic.

Doubt most looking at EV will be as concerned with the AP issues, door/window issues, MCU/Flash drive issues. rocker cover issues, UI issues as myself so Ford would be wise to step up on charging if it can at this point is production.
The number one thing the average person would be concerned about with the Tesla is service/support. Me personally, I might have bought a Tesla by now BUT the closest location I can even go see one is 6 hours away. Closest service center ... 6 hours away. I'm not dropping 60 grand sight unseen on a car that I have no idea where I'm going to get service at.

Also i filled out their form online to "test drive" one two weeks ago. Must have that routing straight to their email trash because I didn't get so much as a confirmation of request received.

If Ford can get anywhere close to what Telsa is offering in specs, they will 1000% blow Tesla away in a few years due to this. The majority of people aren't going to just straight up order a 60k car with those restrictions.
 
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