EV Lab

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I posted some analysis of the MME pack and it's current capability, here: https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/mach-e-battery-reverse-engineered.511/page-2#post-67601

I have not been able to find any detailed information of the pack, e.g. cell datasheet, to confirm if these calculations are correct, but they should be close based on my experience with supporting OEM pack development.

The MME pack is built with LG-Chem cells, while the F-150 Lightning is built using cells from SK Innovation. The capacity is also much bigger, so there are likely many more parallel cells, therefore able to accept a higher charge current. I would say the Lightning will have a completely different charge curve than the MME, likely with much more area above 100kW. The 150kW peak charge rate is likely due to sharing of onboard DCFC modules like the pack relays and other BMS components.
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TheVirtualTim

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Don't think of the "battery" as a single big battery. It's a battery pack with lots of small cells.

Each cell is somewhat limited in how quickly it can accept a charge. More cells = more power that can potentially be added in the same amount of time. This assumes the electric supply is able to provide enough power to give each cell as much as it can accept.

At a DC Fast Charger, the car is monitoring battery pack heat as it charges. The 150kW theoretical max charge rate requires ideal temperatures ... most of the time the car is charging more slowly. But a truck with a larger pack can charge nearer to that maximum rate for a longer period of time because the energy is spread across more cells.
 

JamieGeek

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Don't think of the "battery" as a single big battery. It's a battery pack with lots of small cells.

Each cell is somewhat limited in how quickly it can accept a charge. More cells = more power that can potentially be added in the same amount of time. This assumes the electric supply is able to provide enough power to give each cell as much as it can accept.

At a DC Fast Charger, the car is monitoring battery pack heat as it charges. The 150kW theoretical max charge rate requires ideal temperatures ... most of the time the car is charging more slowly. But a truck with a larger pack can charge nearer to that maximum rate for a longer period of time because the energy is spread across more cells.
This is the better way to think about it.

The F-150 pack is roughly 2x the size of the Mach-E's and thus will have 2x the number of cells.

For the sake of argument lets say its exact: Mach-E ER has 376 cells, F-150 ER has 752 cells.

At 150kW each Mach-E cell gets approx 400W of power. Each F-150 cell would get about 200W of power.

Thus the F-150 pack of cells could sustain the 150kW total charging rate for longer because each cell is only seeing 1/2 the wattage (and generating 1/2 the heat) and thus charge faster overall than the Mach-E's.

So the F-150's charge curve will hold 150kW rate a lot longer than the brief amount of time the Mach-E charges at the full 150kW rate.
 

JCHLi

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Given a lot of assumptions, the ability to change from one set percent to another set percent could stay relatively constant regardless of size.

More cathode and anode material allows for more energy to drive the equation without causing damage.

Think of it like musical chairs, early on there are lots of open chairs (lots of anode material available) so most of the players (ions) find a nice spot. As open chairs decrease (higher charge percent) it gets more difficult to find an open chair. Eventually if you play the game too long and too fast, someone breaks the chair when they all dive for it (battery degradation).

Ok, that was an awful attempt at an analogy but it is all I got.
 
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I.Adams

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The answer can be, that FORD uses the 800V technology as Porsche did with the Tycan.
 


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This is the better way to think about it.

The F-150 pack is roughly 2x the size of the Mach-E's and thus will have 2x the number of cells.

For the sake of argument lets say its exact: Mach-E ER has 376 cells, F-150 ER has 752 cells.

At 150kW each Mach-E cell gets approx 400W of power. Each F-150 cell would get about 200W of power.

Thus the F-150 pack of cells could sustain the 150kW total charging rate for longer because each cell is only seeing 1/2 the wattage (and generating 1/2 the heat) and thus charge faster overall than the Mach-E's.

So the F-150's charge curve will hold 150kW rate a lot longer than the brief amount of time the Mach-E charges at the full 150kW rate.
The Lightning may even be able to take 350kW charging. Because the energy per cell of the 752 cell pack is half that of the 376 cell pack, a 350kW charger is delivering only slightly more kW/cell to a Lightning than the 150kW charger delivers to the Mach E.

Darren Palmer hints at this in the interview with Electrek.
 

ChasingCoral

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As for AC charging, this is where the dual onboard chargers fit in. The Lightning Pack is essential split into two packs by the two onboard chargers, allowing each half to be charged at the same speed as the Mach E. It does not require plugging in to two chargers, only one really powerful one like the new Ford Charge Station Pro, an 80A charger.

Ford Mustang Mach-E Explain the Math of AC vs DC Charging Charging-Options-and-Estimated-Charge-Times
 

Mach Dad

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If you look at the F150 Lightning pics it looks like they have a 'charging port' on both sides of the car. They didn't show that functioning as such though.
 

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If you look at the F150 Lightning pics it looks like they have a 'charging port' on both sides of the car. They didn't show that functioning as such though.
Or they use the same panel shape for balanced styling or planning for the UK market. No sign of a right side charger in this x-ray view:
Ford Mustang Mach-E Explain the Math of AC vs DC Charging 22_16x9
 

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So this brings me the F150. How does it charge at roughly double the speed of the MME? It sounds like Ford is allowing it to charge twice as fast. But if Ford can allow that, why can’t it allow the same for the MME? Is this a function of basic math that I’m not aware of, or is this more a function of complex engineering which allows the F150’s pack to charge faster, safely?
The info you may be missing is that the max charge current (DC) is probably capped right around 1xC of the battery pack where C is the ah capacity of the parallel batteries. Effectively, this means that the larger capacity battery packs can charge at a higher rate without additional damage. DCDC 'fast charge' at rates approaching 1C increase internal damage from dendrite growth and plating, reducing capacity, and putting warranty at risk.

so.... depending on the cells used, and the configuration... at a given pack voltage, the larger packs have higher ah capacity (C), and can accept higher charge current.
 

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The info you may be missing is that the max charge current (DC) is probably capped right around 1xC of the battery pack where C is the ah capacity of the parallel batteries. Effectively, this means that the larger capacity battery packs can charge at a higher rate without additional damage. DCDC 'fast charge' at rates approaching 1C increase internal damage from dendrite growth and plating, reducing capacity, and putting warranty at risk.

so.... depending on the cells used, and the configuration... at a given pack voltage, the larger packs have higher ah capacity (C), and can accept higher charge current.
Remember that this is why the SR battery (68kWh) charges at a max of 115kW and the ER battery (88kWh) charges at a max of 150kW.
 

dtbaker61

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Remember that this is why the SR battery (68kWh) charges at a max of 115kW and the ER battery (88kWh) charges at a max of 150kW.
exactly.
a 4p stack has more ah than 3p, thus a higher 'C' rate cap set by software to preserve the health of the cells.
 

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As for AC charging, this is where the dual onboard chargers fit in. The Lightning Pack is essential split into two packs by the two onboard chargers, allowing each half to be charged at the same speed as the Mach E. It does not require plugging in to two chargers, only one really powerful one like the new Ford Charge Station Pro, an 80A charger.

Ford Mustang Mach-E Explain the Math of AC vs DC Charging 22_16x9
Chasing Coral, I caught this too on the Lightning launch, the Ford Charge Station Pro is an 80-amp compared to the Ford Connected Station of 48-amp (which I ordered in Feb and never received because of the stop ship). BUT Mirak educated me that if the max is 11.3kW, the 48-amp is the max that the MME can take in from a L2. The Lightning's cap must be at 19.2kW.

I was hoping to get the Ford Charge Station Pro, but apparently won't buy me any faster charge time as we're maxed at 11.3kW.

Thank you Mirak for the math formula (attached pict, couldn't upload XLS)

MME Charging.PNG
 

JamieGeek

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Chasing Coral, I caught this too on the Lightning launch, the Ford Charge Station Pro is an 80-amp compared to the Ford Connected Station of 48-amp (which I ordered in Feb and never received because of the stop ship). BUT Mirak educated me that if the max is 11.3kW, the 48-amp is the max that the MME can take in from a L2. The Lightning's cap must be at 19.2kW.

I was hoping to get the Ford Charge Station Pro, but apparently won't buy me any faster charge time as we're maxed at 11.3kW.

Thank you Mirak for the math formula (attached pict, couldn't upload XLS)

Ford Mustang Mach-E Explain the Math of AC vs DC Charging MME Charging.PNG
According to my window sticker, we're maxxed at 10.5kW:
Ford Mustang Mach-E Explain the Math of AC vs DC Charging 1622030768433
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