Farley believes he knows how to beat the Chinese on EVs

Pioneer74

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This is a pretty good article about what direction Ford is taking in it's future EV development.

In 2022, Ford established Skunkworks, where Farley said, "My badge does not work in that building," alluding to the top-secret development happening there. He said Ford hired a whole new team in California, with many from competitive all-EV brands.

"They have developed a platform that we think is fully competitive with BYD," Farley said.

Farley said creating Skunkworks proved to be effective from a cost standpoint. The automaker has developed a new platform at about a third of the cost than had Ford done it in-house.

"That will give us a huge benefit, because we believe that EV demand is still out there, that there is a very underserved group of people on the super affordable," Farley said. "But these very large EVs that cost $50,000, $60,000, $70,000, we don't believe in. We think (extended-range electric vehicle) or hybrid is a much better, more profitable investment in our capital."
https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2025/02/21/ford-jim-farely-evs-china/78980633007/
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kltye

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Ah, so to innovate on EVs, we must first go back to ICE via hybrids and range extenders. Wow, really greenfield thinking there, guys!
 

Shepherd

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Ah, so to innovate on EVs, we must first go back to ICE via hybrids and range extenders. Wow, really greenfield thinking there, guys!
I agree. Is the Mach-e a “very large EV?” It costs $50k, which is too high in general, but that seems to be typical across the board. I’m not interested in going backwards to a gasser or hybrid. Trade wars won’t keep Chinese EVs out forever. We have DIY ghost guns, someone will find a way to bring in Xiaomi DIY ghost cars.
 

kltye

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I agree. Is the Mach-e a “very large EV?” It costs $50k, which is too high in general, but that seems to be typical across the board. I’m not interested in going backwards to a gasser or hybrid. Trade wars won’t keep Chinese EVs out forever. We have DIY ghost guns, someone will find a way to bring in Xiaomi DIY ghost cars.
Honestly, I'd love for them to bring back the Focus electric as a small, "cheap" EV, on a purpose-built platform of course. Or the Fusion as sedan EV. The Ioniq 6 is selling relatively well, I think, and I guess Hyundai thinks it's worthwhile to sell that in the US. Not sure why Ford is thinking "oh wow it's so hard to build a cheaper EV" when this seems patently obvious.
 


GreaseMonkey

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No one will buy a shitty $20k econobox.

Many people don’t bat an eye sinking $45k in a shitty Camry. Cost is not the issue, beyond a certain point. EVs need to be fundamentally good cars. I need advanced tech like what Tesla and Rivian has plus autonomous driving that doesn’t cost a fortune. I need to never worry about ota updates, or a 12v, or an hvbjb. And I need a car that doesn’t lose most of its value in 2 years. I need a reliable charging network with intuitive routing and preconditioning. I need an EV to be obscenely fast (like between 3 & 4 sec 0-60) and fun to drive. And I need it offered in a package that fits my needs (which for me is bigger than mme and not a full size), think X5 2 seater.

They’re approaching this all wrong. They are thinking sustainability of model e from a biz perspective. But cheap is not the answer. Good is. And for most people (excluding us of course), mme is not good enough to buy.
 

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"They have developed a platform that we think is fully competitive with BYD," Farley said.

That's a bold statement. And competitive in China or here in the US should BYD, Xpeng, Nio et al ever arrive on our shores, tariff free? It feels very much like there are two BEV markets: the US and the rest of the world. Need to be clear about which one we are talking about.
 
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kltye

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No one will buy a shitty $20k econobox.

Many people don’t bat an eye sinking $45k in a shitty Camry. Cost is not the issue, beyond a certain point. EVs need to be fundamentally good cars. I need advanced tech like what Tesla and Rivian has plus autonomous driving that doesn’t cost a fortune. I need to never worry about ota updates, or a 12v, or an hvbjb. And I need a car that doesn’t lose most of its value in 2 years. I need a reliable charging network with intuitive routing and preconditioning. I need an EV to be obscenely fast (like between 3 & 4 sec 0-60) and fun to drive. And I need it offered in a package that fits my needs (which for me is bigger than mme and not a full size), think X5 2 seater.

They’re approaching this all wrong. They are thinking sustainability of model e from a biz perspective. But cheap is not the answer. Good is. And for most people (excluding us of course), mme is not good enough to buy.
I think there's a market for what you like - and I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with that. However, I beg to differ on no one wanting a shitty $20k econobox. China's success in the EV world shows that there are classes of people who don't really care about cars in terms of 0-60 times or tech (in fact, I'd argue that lots of people don't want additional tech past what's useful for EV driving). Some just want a clean, reliable form of transportation with minimal maintenance - which EVs mostly are currently. I'm looking for a second car myself, and I don't need it to do much more than get me around town and a commute into the city every so often. The classic Ioniq EV is definitely more than enough car for me, and I've love to have more options than that.

Heck, if they could build a shitty Camry EV (which I know is larger than the Ioniq) for cheap, I'd be happy to buy a used one a few years down the road.
 

cheerioboy26

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Ford? innovate? Yeah okay - They cant even figure out an OTA process that many companies have figured out. Even after hiring ex-Apple and ex-Tesla folks who know how OTAs work lol
Agreed. But I doubt those ex-Apple and ex-Tesla folks have ever tried to fix the Sync QNX OTA process. That's a dead horse. Hopefully it's all-new.
 

E90alex

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I kind of see what he’s getting at. He’s just being realistic and the reality is the large EV market (3 row SUVs, trucks, vans) is just priced out of what most people can afford and ICE is still better (cost and convenience wise) for many of the use cases of larger vehicles. Eg long road trips, towing, etc.

You can’t defy physics and there’s really no magical way around needing a huge battery for a large boxy vehicle. And the bigger the battery is the more expensive it has to be and the longer it takes to charge. At some point the cost/benefit of having such a large battery EV just doesn’t make sense with the current state of battery technology/price and charging infrastructure.

Just look at all the GM EV trucks/SUVs with enormous 200+ kW batteries that weigh 9000lbs and cost $100k+. There’s not a huge market for that.

Theres way more potential buyers on the low end of the market. But the catch-22 is on the low end of the market, a lot of those buyers likely live in rentals or apartments/condos where they can’t have a home charging solution. Owning an EV without home charging can be very inconvenient and expensive (sometimes fast charging is just as if not more expensive than gas) so there’s no reason for those buyers to move to an EV.
 

67 Stang Convertible

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Fair or Unfair, China is making a Better EV with more technology and reliable FSD for a cheaper price. I don't think their unions are as strong as the UAW.

It seems like an alternate world when we are behind China! But I guess when you let them lead the way in manufacturing and gut our middle class for a few generations, this is what happens.
 

GreaseMonkey

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I think there's a market for what you like - and I certainly don't think there's anything wrong with that. However, I beg to differ on no one wanting a shitty $20k econobox. China's success in the EV world shows that there are classes of people who don't really care about cars in terms of 0-60 times or tech (in fact, I'd argue that lots of people don't want additional tech past what's useful for EV driving). Some just want a clean, reliable form of transportation with minimal maintenance - which EVs mostly are currently. I'm looking for a second car myself, and I don't need it to do much more than get me around town and a commute into the city every so often. The classic Ioniq EV is definitely more than enough car for me, and I've love to have more options than that.

Heck, if they could build a shitty Camry EV (which I know is larger than the Ioniq) for cheap, I'd be happy to buy a used one a few years down the road.
My point is that price is not everything, and that holds true especially for EVs. We are nowhere near price parity with ice (which is typically thought of as $100/ kWh). I think we were $150+, last time I checked. And that hurts EVs in the low end far more than mid and high end for obvious reasons. So how will ford offer a low end car profitably? They will decontent the shit out of it. Remember, Ford is specialized in conceding complete market segments. They pulled out of the sedan market completely and became a truck company (ok, plus Mustang coupe). The domestics never made money on small, cheap cars in the last 40-50 years even when they had 100+ years of experience building them. So why would ford want to make a small and cheap EVs? All the engineers who have small car experience are dead and decomposed by now.

I worded my post as my own requirements, but they still hold true for the market as a whole, maybe minus the performance aspect (cause I personally am going through a mild midlife crisis).

I think EVs have a sweet spot of midsize suvs and large sedans which are the smack dead in the middle of the market. Go lower and you get killed by the cost. Go higher and you get crushed by the weight. And fighting economics or physics is a fool’s game.

Just my two cents.
 

GreaseMonkey

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Fair or Unfair, China is making a Better EV with more technology and reliable FSD for a cheaper price. I don't think their unions are as strong as the UAW.

It seems like an alternate world when we are behind China! But I guess when you let them lead the way in manufacturing and gut our middle class for a few generations, this is what happens.
China has one union of hundreds of millions of workers. That union is (you guessed it) controlled by the government like virtually everything else. So the gov tells labor and management exactly how things are going to go. Everyone gets busy executing. Pretty simple and frictionless.

And I agree that Chinese autos are getting shockingly good. Manufacturing in general in China is shockingly good. I work for a global industrial company. When the ops leadership meets and wants to brag about accomplishments, most of the great examples come from China. We have to dig very deep to find examples from Europe, and frankly we stopped looking for ones from the US. It’s very sad, actually.
 

GreaseMonkey

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Watches people go drop $5k on a econobox with 100k+ miles on it.

Average car age is almost 13 years old. Majority of people are not leasing out a new 60k+ car every 3 years.

Plenty if market for a quality cheap car.
Apples and cucumbers. Who gives a fuck about used? Farley isn’t selling used. He’s selling brand new vehicles.

The average price of a new car in the US is $47,010. And that’s primarily ice. Last year, I bought a loaded GT with all the bells and whistles for $52k. If I leased it, I would have gotten it for $7k less. Mme premiums are selling below average by a few thousands.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/274927/new-vehicle-average-selling-price-in-the-united-states/
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