First Mustang Mach E Road Trip ?

buzznwood

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I kind of philisophically agree with this idea as well. I know nothing about Straightpipes, but if you do, I wonder if they advocate for this across all EVs or just the MME?
I would say the rant applied to all EV's. Most of the marketing push on EVS has been charge at home ready to go when you wake up, once we got to 200 mile range EV's the commutes & local trip was pretty much covered and that marketing push should have ended it is really the road trip that needs to be solved now.

Which of course where we need better testing and information being shown on the window sticker what we have now from the EPA / WLTP just doesn't cut it. Just take something as simple as charging rate where you have peak charge rate vs sustained.

The mach-e has 150kw charging but it does it for such a miniscule length of time that in reality 150kw is meaningless beyond a marketing check box, where as an Audi e-tron can do 150kw for ages, plug in at 0% and you get 150kw all they way to 80%, plug in at 70% get 150kw to 80% that is the sort of consistency you want and what I would class as being a true 150kw DCFC charging speed yet both are currently advertised as being 150kw DCFC :(.

Early adopters may well look into all the details but the masses will not, while it won't be an issue for some states come 2030 for some there is either going to be a lot of very disappointed people getting a BEV or a large uptake in used ICE vehicles and out of state plates. Sure 2030 is a long way away but the push for 2030 will be to bring down the price of BEVs to that of similar ICE so all those cheaper entry level BEV are going to be pretty similar to what we have now when it comes to range and charging times and for a lot of people it will make it worse than the ICE it replaces.

People have a tendency to make purchasing decisions and justify those based on the 10% use case not the 90% so adjusting the testing to cover that 10% use of case of a road trip goes a long way to improving BEVS or a least allowing people to make informed choices, there is going to be plenty of people happy with the 90% use case city car.
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BadgerGreg

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Plugging in with my own charger out on the road is not something I really plan for anything other that emergency purposes though. In part because I don't trust leaving an EVSE worth hundreds of dollars (and a pricey heavy-duty extension cord) left unattended overnight in a parking lot. Usually we're talking 120V in such a case, and that just doesn't add enough juice to make it worthwhile IMO. Plus it's easy to pop a breaker pulling that much power on a 120V circuit that's not intended for that.

Plus I'm not totally comfortable with the ethical aspect of just stealing business' electricity. I know some people ask for permission first, but some don't. And even those that do are probably just getting the OK from some employee at the front desk that doesn't really care. Plugging in a phone charger that draws a penny of electricity is one thing, but an EV charging for 10 hours is quite another.
Many times you’ll be at a friend’s house where you generally won’t have to worry about the cord and charger. Also, I’ve never had an issue with tripping a circuit breaker with the MME, as the draw isn’t enough to cause a problem, even on a smaller (15 amp) breaker. I also don’t feel guilty about the electricity usage, as I would need to be plugged in continuously for several days for it to make even a small difference in their electrical bill. If the outlet belongs to someone I know and I stay plugged in all weekend, I’ll just get them a modest gift (e.g., bottle of wine) to make up for it.
 

BadgerGreg

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Perhaps, but a look at electricity prices around the country shows even wider variance from one place to another. Same way with retail chargers. Chargers can be priced anywhere from free to over 50 cents/kWh. So I'm not sure that's the best comparison.
True, but electricity costs are much more stable than gasoline. And unlike gasoline, electric rates haven’t gone up 50% in the last year.
 

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The mach-e has 150kw charging but it does it for such a miniscule length of time that in reality 150kw is meaningless beyond a marketing check box, where as an Audi e-tron can do 150kw for ages, plug in at 0% and you get 150kw all they way to 80%, plug in at 70% get 150kw to 80% that is the sort of consistency you want and what I would class as being a true 150kw DCFC charging speed yet both are currently advertised as being 150kw DCFC :(.
That's why Ford (and some others) advertise not just the peak charge power, but also the 10-80% time. That's the number that really matters, not the peak. 10-80% is the apt criteria since that's what people are likely to limit themselves to between DCFC road trip legs. It's already a bit of a standard for charge time measurement. Similarly, it should be a standard for range measurement as well (for the same reason - it's how most people will do road trips).

Ford advertised 45 minutes for the 10-80% charge time for the ER (88 kWh). That works out to an average of 82 kW. In most cases we've actually been getting better than that on EA. On a recent trip I averages 95 kW, with some sessions averaging almost 110 kW.
 

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True, but electricity costs are much more stable than gasoline. And unlike gasoline, electric rates haven’t gone up 50% in the last year.
True, it just depends on how the comparison is done. Gas price is more volatility on a time basis (month-to-month), but it's more consistent on place-to-place basis.

Home electricity in the US is lower that 5c/kWh in some locales and over 15c in others. And public chargers may be 10c or 30c or over 50c. Or even "free". But you're right, from month-to-month those prices won't tend to change as much as gas, which has more dynamic market pricing.
 


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I'm trying to understand how you went from a full charge ~270 miles of range to 40
That's my argument about EV and cold weather. My trip was 136 miles I had 40 miles remaining when I got there the loss in between was due to cold weather conditions
 

dbsb3233

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Many times you’ll be at a friend’s house where you generally won’t have to worry about the cord and charger. Also, I’ve never had an issue with tripping a circuit breaker with the MME, as the draw isn’t enough to cause a problem, even on a smaller (15 amp) breaker. I also don’t feel guilty about the electricity usage, as I would need to be plugged in continuously for several days for it to make even a small difference in their electrical bill. If the outlet belongs to someone I know and I stay plugged in all weekend, I’ll just get them a modest gift (e.g., bottle of wine) to make up for it.
Oh yeah, charging a friend's home is different. Although I don't anticipating needing to do that as nearly all our friends are local to us (i.e. well within range of a daily home charge). But if I were visiting a friend or relative further away, sure, I'd have no problem asking to plug in if it were long enough to make a difference (especially if they had 240V to make it worthwhile).

I was thinking more along the lines of the context of plugging in at a business though.
 
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dbsb3233

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That's my argument about EV and cold weather. My trip was 136 miles I had 40 miles remaining when I got there the loss in between was due to cold weather conditions
That's possible. That would be 176 miles total. If leaving home at 100%, that would be 176 miles / 88 kWh battery = 2.0 miles/kWh. We got that little on one of the Utah legs on our recent road trip. It was a cold morning (~30F, with wet roads and spitting snow). But not so bad that we couldn't still go 75-80 MPH on the interstate. It was also uphill some on that leg (maybe 800').

That was our worst leg though. We averaged 2.6 MPK overall. But there's absolutely the possibility of falling down to 2.0 (or even a bit worse) when conditions are unfavorable. Most of the time it's better than that, but gotta be prepared for the bad too. It's not as easy as just jumping in the ICE vehicle.

Whatever the EPA range states, figure about half that for the fully "safe" range. Beyond that becomes "it depends".
 

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That's why Ford (and some others) advertise not just the peak charge power, but also the 10-80% time. That's the number that really matters, not the peak. 10-80% is the apt criteria since that's what people are likely to limit themselves to between DCFC road trip legs. It's already a bit of a standard for charge time measurement. Similarly, it should be a standard for range measurement as well (for the same reason - it's how most people will do road trips).

Ford advertised 45 minutes for the 10-80% charge time for the ER (88 kWh). That works out to an average of 82 kW. In most cases we've actually been getting better than that on EA. On a recent trip I averages 95 kW, with some sessions averaging almost 110 kW.
I would say this a start but again it has issues as the 10% to 80% while useful for those people not clued up they may easily assume that going from 45% to 80% would take half the time, but that is not going to be case in all BEV.

The planners of the world will enjoy all the pre planning a journey to get to the next charger so the battery is in the optimal charge range, but there is a whole host that won't hence why I think a consistent charge rate over the 80% regardless of the base state of charge is more useful metric as this gives people a worst case that is easier to account for if it turns out better well that is just a bonus.

It is all early days so plenty of time for things to be standardized so that the average person just jumping in from an ICE is not going to be in for surprises and disappointments, to under promise. and over deliver is far better option IMO than using best case scenarios as you just end up over promising and under delivering in the long run.
 

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I would say this a start but again it has issues as the 10% to 80% while useful for those people not clued up they may easily assume that going from 45% to 80% would take half the time, but that is not going to be case in all BEV.

The planners of the world will enjoy all the pre planning a journey to get to the next charger so the battery is in the optimal charge range, but there is a whole host that won't hence why I think a consistent charge rate over the 80% regardless of the base state of charge is more useful metric as this gives people a worst case that is easier to account for if it turns out better well that is just a bonus.

It is all early days so plenty of time for things to be standardized so that the average person just jumping in from an ICE is not going to be in for surprises and disappointments, to under promise. and over deliver is far better option IMO than using best case scenarios as you just end up over promising and under delivering in the long run.
Except most vehicles don't charge at a consistent charge rate. So there is no single standard that's gonna fit. Just gotta come up with a measurement that's a reasonable estimate for a common usage pattern. The 10-80% time is probably the best way I can see to do it now. And even that's gonna vary a lot based on ambient temperature, battery conditioning, age, etc. As well as the manufacturer's approach to maintaining battery health and longevity. That's just the nature of the technology.

It would be simpler on drivers if all BEVs charged at the same rate and pattern, of course, but one-size-fits-all just isn't possible for that.
 

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Couple of quick notes:
  • For those who say “Ford’s Navigation is awful, Google products are the only products people should EVER use.!”, I never use Google products when I have a choice not to, and disable them whenever I can, when they’re built into products I buy. I don’t like Google or their business model. I am not their commodity to sell as they see fit. You may see this differently.
Do you think Ford isn't tracking you, or Garmin, or whomever is providing that data to Ford? Do you actually think they won't sell the information, or use it in some fashion, once they dial it in? Are you certain your phone, your watch / fitness tracker, whatever else isn't tracking you? And there's lot more we aren't even discussing like license plate readers, the cameras in the cars around you, the camera in the homes and business that are tracking you, your cell phone pinging the world, facial recognition (which isn't any good, yet), etc.

I'm not defending Google, not even a little bit, just saying if you really want to lock down, buy a car without an infotainment system, a manual watch, a burner phone (because any cell phone is tracked), get some license plate reflective material, tint the windows, etc.

Because, everywhere you go my friend, there they are.
 

buzznwood

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Except most vehicles don't charge at a consistent charge rate. So there is no single standard that's gonna fit. Just gotta come up with a measurement that's a reasonable estimate for a common usage pattern. The 10-80% time is probably the best way I can see to do it now. And even that's gonna vary a lot based on ambient temperature, battery conditioning, age, etc. As well as the manufacturer's approach to maintaining battery health and longevity. That's just the nature of the technology.

It would be simpler on drivers if all BEVs charged at the same rate and pattern, of course, but one-size-fits-all just isn't possible for that.
Agreed, coming up with a standard that works well will be tricky and everyone will have a different method, but if everything is at least tested the same way consumers can compare.

While not perfect p3-group charging index is a useful comparison, which unfortunately rates at the mach-e at the bottom :(
https://www.p3-group.com/wp-content/uploads/P3-Charging-Index-Update2021-en-1.pdf

For some trims of the mach-e this is less of an issue but for the GT & GTPE improvements are needed to the current charge curve. Thankfully my dealer is happy to refund my deposit on my order, IMO only but the weight of BEVs means a form of adaptive suspension is really a must as it is the only way to get the required balance between comfort and handling so for mach-e the only option is the GTPE.

The size of the battery pack and the buffer means either ford is just being ultra conservative and are leaving plenty on the table for later or they didn't plan accordingly and never moved beyond the compliance mindset when it comes to charging :(, hopefully it is the former and not the later and by the time the GT's start turning up for delivery significant improvements have been made to DCFC charging via OTA otherwise I may just have to put my coin elsewhere. I don't expect to use it on my 600+ mile trips out to some of the national parks, but even some of my longer distance day trips don't look to be that enjoyable either according to ABRP with the current charge rates :(
 

dbsb3233

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Agreed, coming up with a standard that works well will be tricky and everyone will have a different method, but if everything is at least tested the same way consumers can compare.

While not perfect p3-group charging index is a useful comparison, which unfortunately rates at the mach-e at the bottom :(
https://www.p3-group.com/wp-content/uploads/P3-Charging-Index-Update2021-en-1.pdf

For some trims of the mach-e this is less of an issue but for the GT & GTPE improvements are needed to the current charge curve. Thankfully my dealer is happy to refund my deposit on my order, IMO only but the weight of BEVs means a form of adaptive suspension is really a must as it is the only way to get the required balance between comfort and handling so for mach-e the only option is the GTPE.

The size of the battery pack and the buffer means either ford is just being ultra conservative and are leaving plenty on the table for later or they didn't plan accordingly and never moved beyond the compliance mindset when it comes to charging :(, hopefully it is the former and not the later and by the time the GT's start turning up for delivery significant improvements have been made to DCFC charging via OTA otherwise I may just have to put my coin elsewhere. I don't expect to use it on my 600+ mile trips out to some of the national parks, but even some of my longer distance day trips don't look to be that enjoyable either according to ABRP with the current charge rates :(
Thanks for the link. It's interesting seeing that P3 measured a 94 kW average (10-80%) for the MME. That's right in line with what I was experiencing too. And better than the 82 kW average that Ford advertised. I'm pretty pleased with that at this point, but yeah, better would always be better. We don't do so many road trips that saving 2 or 3 minutes at each DCFC stop would change which car we would have bought, but every little improvement is nice. Maybe Ford will tweak that over time.

I had questions too whether we would decide to drive the Mach-E on long road trips, or continue to drive our Escape (our other car). But after our first road trip (1600 miles round-trip), all the other pluses in the MME outweigh the charging times. But only IF there's good charger coverage on the route (which there was). The 94 kW average wasn't a problem for us.
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