Ford Mustang Mach-E Price Expected To Rise Come Monday

LagerHead

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Now we're just down to semantics, but I could argue that yes, GM and soon Ford will have a true hands-free system for specific situations when Tesla's website still calls Autopilot a "hands-on" system. To me, that's a huge difference.
The Ford and GM systems are only "hands free" until they are not and the human must take over immediately. And that point happens with more frequency than with Autopilot. Because Autopilot stays engaged and handles more complex situations without requiring driver intervention than either GM's or Ford's system.

Not only can Autopilot handle more variety of roads, but on the roads that GM and Ford's system can handle, the Tesla is less likely to require human intervention to avoid an accident.

That's a much more important distinction than the method each system uses to very a human is present.
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macchiaz-o

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The Ford and GM systems are only "hands free" until they are not and the human must take over immediately.
While in a hands-free driving mode, the driver needs to reestablish control of the steering wheel based on his understanding of the upcoming situation as observed with his own senses, or soon after alerted by the vehicle.

In a hands-on driving mode, the vehicle is either less capable of measuring the driver's attentiveness, or is less capable of handling the most immediate and urgent changes in road conditions. Or both things are true. Therefore the driver's hands must remain on the steering wheel so that the driver may regain control of steering much more quickly after he becomes aware of the new conditions.

In both cases, the driver also needs to be prepared to take over control of the pedals based on the upcoming situation, as observed by the driver at all times.

And that point happens with more frequency than with Autopilot. Because Autopilot stays engaged and handles more complex situations without requiring driver intervention than either GM's or Ford's system.
According to Tony Seba, in some quick, predictive analytics that he scratched out on the backside of a Starbucks napkin back in 1861.

Not only can Autopilot handle more variety of roads, but on the roads that GM and Ford's system can handle, the Tesla is less likely to require human intervention to avoid an accident.
Put another way, it seems that compared to any other make of road vehicle, a Tesla has a higher likelihood of being involved in an accident caused by its human driver who, lulled into a undeservedly high level confidence of the vehicle's ability to be its own "driver," fails to pay attention or take control of an avoidable collision.

Obviously that is not a generalization for all Tesla drivers, nor all drivers of other makes.
 

buffasnow

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It appears you are still unaware that the initial statement by the officer in the recent Texas crash that he was "100% sure" there was no one in the driver's seat at the time of impact was incorrect. There was a driver present at the time of impact and the earlier reports were irresponsible speculation.

Unless you know of some other Tesla fatality that happened with no one in the driver's seat?
Wait, so fatal Tesla crashes are only problematic if there was no one in the driver's seat?
 

buffasnow

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Again, it depends upon whether "hands free" refers the method by which each system monitors the driver or means the system never requires human intervention.
Is there a system that uses hands to monitor the driver?

This Youtuber refers to the GM system as "self-driving system". How come this is dangerously irresponsible when Tesla does it but perfectly fine when GM does it? Doesn't "self-driving system" imply it doesn't need a driver?
Well, for one, it's......YouTube. You've seen YouTube, right? Anyone with a pulse and functioning brain stem can say pretty much whatever they want there, brain stem optional.

Do you feel that a reference from a random YouTuber carries the same weight as a statement from a genius-led gazillion dollar auto manufacturing company? Or that it should carry the same weight?

Has GM endorsed the Youtuber's comments? Put him on the payroll maybe?

It's all the more ironic when one finds out just how much more advanced Tesla's driver aids actually are today than anything GM or Ford have in the lab. I know this upsets Ford or GM fans but I have to call it how I actually see it based upon all the evidence. This is widely known by people in the field of robotics and autonomy to be true.
Do Ford and GM know you've been in their labs evaluating their driver assist technology? Any evidence to share on this one?

References to articles or publications by these people in the field of robotics and autonomy? A YouTube channel, even?
 

LagerHead

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Wait, so fatal Tesla crashes are only problematic if there was no one in the driver's seat?
No, you claimed your concern with Autopilot was that Teslas were crashing without anyone in the driver's seat. I simply asked if you had a single example of that ever happening.

Apparently, your answer is no.
 


LagerHead

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Is there a system that uses hands to monitor the driver?
Yes, please try to follow the conversation.


Do Ford and GM know you've been in their labs evaluating their driver assist technology? Any evidence to share on this one?
I'm not talking about self-driving systems only available in a laboratory setting, I'm talking about systems that are widely available to consumers today.

It's well-known that Autopilot handles more situations without driver intervention than either Copilot or Supercruise. There are lots of videos of Autopilot steering around deer, avoiding crashing cars, ducks, etc. Also navigating through more complex construction zones, accident scenes, etc, scenes that will cause Supercruise to "call for mommy"< just kidding, it will demand the driver take over immediately. ;)

Supercruise is highly dependent upon precision mapping and becomes confused if the environment is not how it was when the map was trained (like an accident scene). It also works on a limited set of highways. I'm less familiar with Copilot but the journalists who have tried it did not seem to think it was as advanced as Autopilot.

If you have evidence to the contrary, let's see it.
 

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No, you claimed your concern with Autopilot was that Teslas were crashing without anyone in the driver's seat. I simply asked if you had a single example of that ever happening.

Apparently, your answer is no.
Posted without comment.

Stang68 said:
And I don't think there's a double-standard when people are getting into deadly accidents in Teslas with no one in the driver's seat because they think their car drives itself. GM and Ford have eye monitoring solutions to prevent dumb behavior, but Elon Musk insists that's never going to happen in a Tesla. Why? Seems like a good way to monitor that someone is actually in the driver's seat.
It appears you are still unaware that the initial statement by the officer in the recent Texas crash that he was "100% sure" there was no one in the driver's seat at the time of impact was incorrect. There was a driver present at the time of impact and the earlier reports were irresponsible speculation.

Unless you know of some other Tesla fatality that happened with no one in the driver's seat?
 

buffasnow

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Lagerhead said:
It's all the more ironic when one finds out just how much more advanced Tesla's driver aids actually are today than anything GM or Ford have in the lab. I know this upsets Ford or GM fans but I have to call it how I actually see it based upon all the evidence. This is widely known by people in the field of robotics and autonomy to be true.

Then I said:
Do Ford and GM know you've been in their labs evaluating their driver assist technology? Any evidence to share on this one?

then Lagerhead said:
I'm not talking about self-driving systems only available in a laboratory setting, I'm talking about systems that are widely available to consumers today.

(Emphasis mine)

I am really trying to follow the conversation here. Help me out - which one is it?
 
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buffasnow

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buffasnow said:
Is there a system that uses hands to monitor the driver?

Yes, please try to follow the conversation.
Cool. I need to see a schematic. How many hands are we talking here? Can any be programmed for light neck massage?
 

LagerHead

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Lagerhead said:
It's all the more ironic when one finds out just how much more advanced Tesla's driver aids actually are today than anything GM or Ford have in the lab. I know this upsets Ford or GM fans but I have to call it how I actually see it based upon all the evidence. This is widely known by people in the field of robotics and autonomy to be true.

Then I said:
Do Ford and GM know you've been in their labs evaluating their driver assist technology? Any evidence to share on this one?
OK, I said that comment in haste and will retract it (considering Ford and GM might have some super-special unreleased technology in the lab for all I know). It might be hitting the market any time now. But for systems that are released to the public, there is no doubt Autopilot is the most capable out there.

Thanks for pointing that out.
 

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The Ford and GM systems are only "hands free" until they are not and the human must take over immediately. And that point happens with more frequency than with Autopilot. Because Autopilot stays engaged and handles more complex situations without requiring driver intervention than either GM's or Ford's system.

Not only can Autopilot handle more variety of roads, but on the roads that GM and Ford's system can handle, the Tesla is less likely to require human intervention to avoid an accident.

That's a much more important distinction than the method each system uses to very a human is present.
I think we're coming down to simply a difference of opinions (and sometimes facts...). Tesla requires your hands to be on the wheel at all times, it's in the manual. Ford and GM's systems do not. To me, that's huge.

Can Teslas do a ton of cool "self-driving" things while also being SO lax about driver intervention that it leads to horrific crashes? Yes to that, too.
 

LagerHead

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I think we're coming down to simply a difference of opinions (and sometimes facts...). Tesla requires your hands to be on the wheel at all times, it's in the manual. Ford and GM's systems do not. To me, that's huge.

Can Teslas do a ton of cool "self-driving" things while also being SO lax about driver intervention that it leads to horrific crashes? Yes to that, too.
Tesla's decision are driven by rational thought while placing a high emphasis on safety. If your hands are already on the wheel when there is an issue, the driver can take over that much more quickly. At 70 mph that reaction time difference could lead to a much better outcome.

Ford should really care enough about safety to recommend the driver keep his or her hands on the wheel for this reason. If they don't at least recommend this, I think it's an area they can improve safety by changing their recommendation. I really don't understand the constant harping on Tesla safety when they make decisions driven by common sense as well as data to drive safety higher. No rational person could deny all of these driver assist systems are safer when the driver already has their hands on the wheel vs. if their hands are on their laps. When these systems make a steering correction you feel it in the steering first. But only if your hand is on the steering wheel.
 

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Tesla's decision are driven by rational thought while placing a high emphasis on safety. If your hands are already on the wheel when there is an issue, the driver can take over that much more quickly. At 70 mph that reaction time difference could lead to a much better outcome.

Ford should really care enough about safety to recommend the driver keep his or her hands on the wheel for this reason. If they don't at least recommend this, I think it's an area they can improve safety by changing their recommendation. I really don't understand the constant harping on Tesla safety when they make decisions driven by common sense as well as data to drive safety higher. No rational person could deny all of these driver assist systems are safer when the driver already has their hands on the wheel vs. if their hands are on their laps. When these systems make a steering correction you feel it in the steering first. But only if your hand is on the steering wheel.
I'm sorry but you cannot say Tesla is all for safety when they have one of the most-easily "tricked" driver-assistance program (water bottle anyone?). Why won't Musk just put eye-trackers in the car? Most other advanced systems from BMW, Ford, GM, Mercedes, etc. have them and to me are the best indicator of if a driver is attentive.

Again I don't think we'll see eye-to-eye on this, but you cannot keep stating things as fact when they are simply your opinion.
 

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Again I don't think we'll see eye-to-eye on this, but you cannot keep stating things as fact when they are simply your opinion.
Unfortunately he can AND WILL DO SO INDEFINITELY as long as you guys keep engaging him.

Dumpster fires require oxygen to keep burning; please stop feeding the dumpster fire.
 
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Again, it depends upon whether "hands free" refers the method by which each system monitors the driver or means the system never requires human intervention. By the first measure, Supercruise is more "hands-free", by the second measure, neither system can be considered hands-free because the driver is instructed to be ready at a moments notice to put their hands on the wheel and take over. So, it's only "hands-free" until it isn't.



This Youtuber refers to the GM system as "self-driving system". How come this is dangerously irresponsible when Tesla does it but perfectly fine when GM does it? Doesn't "self-driving system" imply it doesn't need a driver?

On a related note, it's odd that people get all hot and bothered when Tesla refers to their system as "Autopilot" but no one seems to care if people refer to GM or Ford's system as "hands free", a term that implies you can set it and forget it, your hands are no longer necessary.

It's a definite double-standard to be upset by the terms Self-driving and Autopilot when Tesla uses those terms but the same person thinks Co-Pilot, self driving, and hand-free are perfectly fine and not damngerous or irresponsible at all when applied to GM's or Ford's systems. It shows an extreme anti-Tesla bias.

It's all the more ironic when one finds out just how much more advanced Tesla's driver aids actually are today than anything GM or Ford have in the lab. I know this upsets Ford or GM fans but I have to call it how I actually see it based upon all the evidence. This is widely known by people in the field of robotics and autonomy to be true.
Please note that this is the thread for Ford Mustang Mach-E Price Expected To Rise Come Monday. Please keep the Tesla Texas Tragedy discussions on that thread. It doesn't need to be part of every thread on the Forum.
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