Ford . . . PLEASE consider making the Mach E compatible with Apple Car Key! (or give us TWO fobs)

RobbH

Member
First Name
Robb
Joined
Dec 29, 2020
Threads
0
Messages
24
Reaction score
34
Location
New Mexico
Vehicles
MME FE - Grabber Blue
Country flag
I don’t believe any of the Apple fanboys (guilty as charged) are demanding a recall of all existing Mustang Mach Es to install hardware required to support existing or future implementations of Apple CarKey, if the hardware is not already there. Nor are we asking that any existing functionality be removed. The only ask is that a new functionality be ADDED to existing cars, if possible, and that it be considered for inclusion on the product roadmap for future MY. Just because Ford sold their soul to Google doesn’t mean they can’t occasionally continue to try to play well with other platforms.
Spot on! Ford has a chance at a new paradigm with the Mach E and I would hope while they are exploring the business model they would also reconsider how they handle feature updates. As you said if the ability to add a digital key exists, my hope is that they wouldn't hold to "old" thinking by just including it in newer models but would also allow current users the opportunity to upgrade.

At the risk of engineering a system I don't work on it seems like the PaaK system does the bulk of the work on the software side and it just needs an additional sensor for the NFC so I am crossing my fingers.
Sponsored

 

generaltso

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
Threads
69
Messages
14,710
Reaction score
26,810
Location
Vermont
Vehicles
2021 MME Premium AWD SR Infinite Blue
Country flag
At the risk of engineering a system I don't work on it seems like the PaaK system does the bulk of the work on the software side and it just needs an additional sensor for the NFC so I am crossing my fingers.
Adding an NFC sensor to the door (and other places) is not trivial, and if the bugs in PaaK are all worked out, NFC would actually be a step backwards. Don't hold your breath.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ARK

RobbH

Member
First Name
Robb
Joined
Dec 29, 2020
Threads
0
Messages
24
Reaction score
34
Location
New Mexico
Vehicles
MME FE - Grabber Blue
Country flag
Adding an NFC sensor to the door (and other places) is not trivial, and if the bugs in PaaK are all worked out, NFC would actually be a step backwards. Don't hold your breath.
I tend to be optimistic in the long term and while it wouldn't be trivial I would gladly pay the dealer to pull the door panel off :)

I will caveat the following with YMMV...I have no issues with PaaK and I haven't once used the FOB. Before anyone attacks me it does, on occasion, not notice me but - and this is 100% conjecture - I don't think it is a Ford issue.

A common memory management technique (and specifically used on iOS) to preserve overall phone functionality and performance is to fully shut down applications that aren't being used if the RAM is needed for current processes. So on those occasions when it doesn't automatically recognize me I take out my phone and launch the Ford App - once I do that it always works. If I'm right then there is nothing that Ford can do to correct it except maybe providing a second FOB.

For me, I find the convenience of not having to always carry a FOB is worth the occasional inconvenience of pulling out my phone. If Ford gave us all a second FOB I wouldn't be mad but I also wouldn't use it. That being said, this issue is why I would prefer a digital key (and would gladly pay) since NFC doesn't rely on actively running software.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
jhalkias

jhalkias

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Threads
122
Messages
2,482
Reaction score
4,953
Location
Ohio
Vehicles
'21 RR ME FE, '22 Corsair GT, '22 Lightning Lariat
Occupation
Benefit Fund Administrator
Country flag
I have no problem with them adding Apple Car Key... unless it is using some proprietary stuff that is unnecessary. As @RobbH and I both mentioned, there is an industry standard called Digital Key. This has been in the works for year. Some are speculating that Apple Car Key is compliant with the specifications, but it is not known for sure (as far as I could tell from the articles I found). The Digital Key standard would not be dependent on or favor any specific platform. Deviation from industry standards just adds hardware costs, developer costs, and complexity.
Could not agree more Patrick. There needs to be standardization for this - not only for our cars, but for our home locks, lighting, and all the IOT stuff that is coming out and has come out. Consumers are baffled with an array of different systems and apps that depend on the type of phone or ecosystem they use. It should not matter if I have an iPhone, Android, or whatever. And the phone has become the gateway for the vast majority of us now.

But . . . if not, I still want another fob!!
 
OP
OP
jhalkias

jhalkias

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Threads
122
Messages
2,482
Reaction score
4,953
Location
Ohio
Vehicles
'21 RR ME FE, '22 Corsair GT, '22 Lightning Lariat
Occupation
Benefit Fund Administrator
Country flag
I tend to be optimistic in the long term and while it wouldn't be trivial I would gladly pay the dealer to pull the door panel off :)

I will caveat the following with YMMV...I have no issues with PaaK and I haven't once used the FOB. Before anyone attacks me it does, on occasion, not notice me but - and this is 100% conjecture - I don't think it is a Ford issue.

A common memory management technique (and specifically used on iOS) to preserve overall phone functionality and performance is to fully shut down applications that aren't being used if the RAM is needed for current processes. So on those occasions when it doesn't automatically recognize me I take out my phone and launch the Ford App - once I do that it always works. If I'm right then there is nothing that Ford can do to correct it except maybe providing a second FOB.

For me, I find the convince of not having to always carry a FOB is worth the occasional inconvenience of pulling out my phone. If Ford gave us all a second FOB I wouldn't be mad but I also wouldn't use it. That being said, this issue is why I would prefer a digital key (and would gladly pay) since NFC doesn't rely on actively running software.
No attack, but I DID do that this morning knowing what you said above. Would not recognize the phone or unlock the door UNTIL I USED FordPass unlock on the FordPass screen. YMMV.
 


TheSeg

Well-Known Member
First Name
Seg
Joined
Oct 5, 2020
Threads
9
Messages
284
Reaction score
646
Location
San Francisco Bay Area, CA
Website
seg.fyi
Vehicles
2021 Mach-E Premium EB-RWD (Built: Feb 2021)
Country flag
Apple Car Keys is a marketing name for a standard specification.

Almost a month ago I did the analysis of Apple Car Keys, which is actually Digital Key Release. Quoting for the deep dive, but some quick points.

The specification is known to all parties, not just Apple. Google/Android and Ford are also involved in the standards process. Apple was first to market a user implementation, BMW the first car implementation (via NFC).

BMW won't need to change the car's hardware or software once Android lands with their implementation. BMW needs to update server software to listen to Android's "Add/Remove a key" endpoint from phone to BMW's servers. The communication and payload from BMW's server's to the car remains the same, as does the phone to car handshake.

Android Auto is very likely to implement this. Samsung already showed off demos using the 3.0 spec, which adds support for UWB and Bluetooth LE on top of existing NFC.

My understanding is that the 2021 Mach-E doesn't have NFC or UWB in the car. Maybe Bluetooth LE? In any case, this model year is very likely not happening. If or when the hardware is there, then it's (hopefully) just a software update to fix.

So for whatever feedback you give on Car Keys, please mention that this isn't an Apple centric function.

In the case of Car Keys -- aka Digital Key Release -- the implementation will include Android when that team finishes rolling out their interpretation.

Let's unpack the places where there is and isn't cross-platform interoperability.

The Digital Key Release specifications are agreed upon by members of the consortium, including Ford, Google, Apple, Samsung, LG, HTC, and so on. All the device and software players seem to be at the table.

Apple does put a marketing name on the service (Car Keys) and interprets the specification using other Apple branded products/services (Apple Wallet, iMessage). Apple was first out of the gate for OS support, but not the only player.

Google/Android can call their interpretations by their own names, and they are certainly aware of them as members. As recently as mid-January, Samsung announced the UWB (Ultra Wideband) coming attractions. Samsung can't achieve this if Android isn't supporting Digital Key Release.

As I'll review, matching to the agreed upon specification means minimal platform specific work is needed by the car manufacture.

The specification does require platform specifics for the client application (FordPass) to the underlying APIs for the operating system. Actions like "Make a new key" or "Does a key exist?". On the server side, Ford servers must ingest and respond between iOS/Android system servers.

As a technical standpoint, server-side push notifications for an application run in a very similar way. I believe FordPass already implements on both platforms, though I confess it's a new endpoint to handle.

The car's handshake is the same regardless of device used. In fact, the car may not actually know or care what OS the client is using. The handshake is standard NFC/UWB communication of cryptographic standards, not locked to iOS or Android owned or hidden specifications. This is also why network isn't used after initial key setup. All the devices can solve the math problems to authenticate the handshake.

The WWDC video I linked outlines the entire workflow. While it's using some Apple specific branding and iOS interpretations, the process doesn't require Apple hardware to replicate on Android. The client's device needs NFC or UWB hardware to communicate with the car. The car needs to have NFC and/or UWB support. None of these elements are inherently proprietary to iOS/Android. The protocols of both are already standard and components procured outside of either.

In the end, Apple devices will have the benefits at first. Once Android releases the OS support, nothing changes with the car's software to support Android made keys. The FordPass app will need to call the Android APIs to make a key. Ford's "make/revoke a key" server takes in a new endpoint to spit out the same data.

Which is a long way for me to ask: Does the Mach-E have NFC and/or UWB?
 

FPLiptak

Well-Known Member
First Name
Frank
Joined
Jun 21, 2020
Threads
14
Messages
326
Reaction score
322
Location
Saint George, UT
Vehicles
Mach-E Premium ER AWD
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Add me to list of those who want a second keyfob. I don't care about Apple Key or PaaK. WIth a fob I don't have to worry about being stranded due to a dead battery in my phone. The batteries in the fobs last for YEARS.
 
OP
OP
jhalkias

jhalkias

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Threads
122
Messages
2,482
Reaction score
4,953
Location
Ohio
Vehicles
'21 RR ME FE, '22 Corsair GT, '22 Lightning Lariat
Occupation
Benefit Fund Administrator
Country flag
Add me to list of those who want a second keyfob. I don't care about Apple Key or PaaK. WIth a fob I don't have to worry about being stranded due to a dead battery in my phone. The batteries in the fobs last for YEARS.
Don't forget you have the code to get in on the car pillar and a code to start it too. I still want a second fob though.
 

ab13

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2020
Threads
3
Messages
584
Reaction score
469
Location
California
Vehicles
Rav4 Hybrid
Country flag
And I know some bean counter in Dearborn decided if our phone works we don't need two fobs. Well, they were wrong. EVERY Mach E owner should get another fob courtesy of Ford. That move was just CHEAP.
I would say partly because Tesla 3/Y come with no key fob, only a security card.
 

Redundant

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jim
Joined
Nov 18, 2019
Threads
18
Messages
489
Reaction score
546
Location
New Jersey
Vehicles
Mach-E 4X-Space White, 1 Ford Flex, 2 Ford Escapes
Country flag
I am officially fed up with paak. I think ford made a mistake in giving us one fob and I am going to complain to ford in an online chat and with dealer. I am pretty tech savvy and it is just so inconsistent to non-existent. It stopped working for me and I started the whole process over and redid my phone as key yesterday. Today I walk out, app shows bluetooth connected, but car just sits there and doesn't unlock or react in any way. When I had it working, it would light up when I was about 10 feet away. So, like many here, it seems to be getting worse, not better. This app is so not ready for prime time that providing on fob was simply a mistake.
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
TimCO
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Threads
54
Messages
9,299
Reaction score
10,814
Location
Colorado, USA
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach-E FE, 2023 Bronco Sport OB
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
I am officially fed up with paak. I think ford made a mistake in giving us one fob and I am going to complain to ford in an online chat and with dealer. I am pretty tech savvy and it is just so inconsistent to non-existent. It stopped working for me and I started the whole process over and redid my phone as key yesterday. Today I walk out, app shows bluetooth connected, but car just sits there and doesn't unlock or react in any way. When I had it working, it would light up when I was about 10 feet away. So, like many here, it seems to be getting worse, not better. This app is so not ready for prime time that providing on fob was simply a mistake.
If it's any consolation, the fob does the same thing for me at times. I often have to hit the door button 5-6 times before the car "wakes up" and the door lights up and opens.

I deactivated PAAK over a week ago. And I got a 2nd fob programmed yesterday. But still having some of the same "slow to wake up" problems. It eventually does, but sometimes it takes many attempts. Especially when it's been sitting for a while. Seems like there's maybe a 10-minute period after having just done anything with the car where it's always alert (and opens right up), but after that it goes into a more "fully off" state (if that makes any sense).

If you want to hear a really bizarre one, get this... When I go out in the morning to get into the car first time, it won't open using my left thumb on the driver door button. I try it 2, 3, 4 times, dead-center. But as soon as I switch to my right thumb, boom, it opens. Gotta be some weird coincidence with a pattern to it, but it just keeps happening.
 

CHeil402

Well-Known Member
First Name
Chris
Joined
Sep 21, 2020
Threads
8
Messages
723
Reaction score
1,314
Location
King of Prussia, PA
Vehicles
2017 Audi A4, 2021 MME
Occupation
Electrical Engineer
Country flag
If it's any consolation, the fob does the same thing for me at times. I often have to hit the door button 5-6 times before the car "wakes up" and the door lights up and opens.

I deactivated PAAK over a week ago. And I got a 2nd fob programmed yesterday. But still having some of the same "slow to wake up" problems. It eventually does, but sometimes it takes many attempts. Especially when it's been sitting for a while. Seems like there's maybe a 10-minute period after having just done anything with the car where it's always alert (and opens right up), but after that it goes into a more "fully off" state (if that makes any sense).

If you want to hear a really bizarre one, get this... When I go out in the morning to get into the car first time, it won't open using my left thumb on the driver door button. I try it 2, 3, 4 times, dead-center. But as soon as I switch to my right thumb, boom, it opens. Gotta be some weird coincidence with a pattern to it, but it just keeps happening.
Is it a push button or a touch-sensitive button (don't have my car yet)? I tend to have very cold hands, and I know that laptop track pads tend not to pick up on my fingers or randomly stop detecting it until I exhale onto my fingers to warm them up.

Maybe it's actually a button implementation issue and not a PaaK / fob issue?
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
TimCO
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Threads
54
Messages
9,299
Reaction score
10,814
Location
Colorado, USA
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach-E FE, 2023 Bronco Sport OB
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Is it a push button or a touch-sensitive button (don't have my car yet)? I tend to have very cold hands, and I know that laptop track pads tend not to pick up on my fingers or randomly stop detecting it until I exhale onto my fingers to warm them up.

Maybe it's actually a button implementation issue and not a PaaK / fob issue?
It's a physical spring-loaded button, not touch.
 

milepost1

Well-Known Member
First Name
harold
Joined
Feb 18, 2021
Threads
14
Messages
312
Reaction score
197
Location
bonney lake
Vehicles
Carbonizied gray - FE
Occupation
retired
Country flag
Add me to list of those who want a second keyfob. I don't care about Apple Key or PaaK. WIth a fob I don't have to worry about being stranded due to a dead battery in my phone. The batteries in the fobs last for YEARS.
Agree want 2nd FOB. Am i the only one who has always carried my FOB's in pocket. the last few cars including mustang, i walk up it is unlocked get in push start and go. the few times it hasnt worked just push open key. could even start car. Not against paak. usually have phone with me. however if it doesnt see it, have to take out of pocket, unlock phone, start paak, etc. Or have to use the codes to get in and start. None of these are hard to do or take long just extra steps. and paak has failed more than my FOB's ever have. just my .02
 

crownmountain

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dave
Joined
Aug 5, 2020
Threads
10
Messages
174
Reaction score
160
Location
Durham NC
Vehicles
2021 Mach-E Premium 2WD ER, 2022 MINI Cooper S EV
Occupation
Industrial network architect
Country flag
On my Mach-E are 2 Bluetooth connections that appear on my IPhone. Guessing one is BlueTooth Low Energy. Why the software for a key would be tied to a specific connection technology seems limiting. Ford and Apple should be able to make the key work as the car is. As for FordPass PAAK for me all is well works every time. I just open the app when going to the car and it works every time.
Sponsored

 
 




Top