Mawby

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But it's not.

I can make a $30k commercial computer purchase direct from the manufacturer (Dell or Apple or...). I can go to their website, select exactly what I want, configure the entire system, etc, then save the system in the shopping cart. I can then go to a reseller, submit the same specs, and compare the prices, including tax and shipping, service agreements, etc.

I can order a TV directly from Samsung, or the same one from BestBuy, from Wal-Mart, from Target, or from a dozen other sources. And while the prices are all nearly the same, that's not always the case.

And with all of these I can have the product delivered to my home without ever having to fight with someone about some worthless etching or coating added (and charged) without my consent.
Agreed. I had a dealer that broke an antenna off of my Flex after a service where they wash it. So I thought. They said they would check the camera video footage they have of in and out of the wash.. In with antenna and out without. They replaced the antenna. This same dealer sells at $400 over invoice or in the MME case at MSRP. Dealers need to shape up or they will be weeded out as Ford proves a direct order is very close to a delivery to a hertz lot.
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tannerk89

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But it's not.

I can make a $30k commercial computer purchase direct from the manufacturer (Dell or Apple or...). I can go to their website, select exactly what I want, configure the entire system, etc, then save the system in the shopping cart. I can then go to a reseller, submit the same specs, and compare the prices, including tax and shipping, service agreements, etc.

I can order a TV directly from Samsung, or the same one from BestBuy, from Wal-Mart, from Target, or from a dozen other sources. And while the prices are all nearly the same, that's not always the case.

And with all of these I can have the product delivered to my home without ever having to fight with someone about some worthless etching or coating added (and charged) without my consent.
It’s not worth it… he will never understand. Probably owns or works at a dealership and doesn’t want his livelihood taken away by a business model that’s better for the consumer. It will change and he will be left behind. Tesla/Rivian/Lucid have all proven direct to consumer works and laws will change as soon as consumers can’t buy a Ford in their state because of some law that enables dealerships. Good luck telling a Texan they can’t buy a superduty because of a law not allowing them to be sold there ?
 

Mach1E

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Ok, so they make the Mach E “no haggle,” what does this really change?

It’s basically no haggle already. Probably 90%+ are paying MSRP or X/A plan currently.

And consumers spend so much time focusing on the new car price, that they forget all the OTHER haggle stuff that’ll still be here:

Trade in value- this is the biggest one. Largest profit margin too (more than the new car) so significantly more wiggle room.

Dealer add ons. Actually a small one but a huge annoyance. Can be hundreds of dollars.

Financing- also a huge one. A 1% difference here can mean THOUSANDS of dollars.

I can see why people who didn’t order and are in California (the epicenter of ADM right now) would love this.

But for everyone else? A non-event. And possibly even bad for the future when demand is lower.
 

RickMachE

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I think many of these comments are pretty naive. You can't take a tiny subset of humanity (a forum) and extrapolate that on to the general population. The reality is that a good portion of humanity isn't very bright, and doesn't do any research to buy anything, or manage their finances, or their lives. They don't know to negotiate on things, much less how to, nor how to understand if they're getting a good deal or not. As an example, a huge portion of vehicle buyers negotiates on payment, not price of the new vehicle or net price with a trade-in.

In reality, of the 3,000+ Ford dealers, a small segment of them try to screw over consumers, just like any other brand of dealership. If the manufacturer cuts out the dealer, we'll end up paying more, not less, for vehicles, for those of us that know how to pay less.

You won't see franchise laws change easily. It won't just be the car dealers pushing back, it will be every franchise industry, of which there are thousands.

People who don't understand why franchise laws, or laws prohibiting manufacturers from selling direct exist should do some research and read about the history. A great example is the beer industry. There's a reason why manufacturers of beer have to sell to distributors, which then sell to retailers / bars. Why? Because the consumer was being screwed over. https://www.craftbeer.com/craft-beer-muses/three-tier-system-impacts-craft-beer

It's unfortunate when one lives in a small town with only one dealership of each brand, and they aren't consumer-friendly. We had that back 40 years ago, and we drove states away to buy a vehicle as a result.

We're considering moving to a place with 3 Ford dealerships within 25 miles. One of them right now has a Bronco listed for $76,000 with a $10,000 discount, net $66,000. The sticker shows an MSRP of $46,000... If we do move there, even if they accept A-Plan, I likely won't give them any of my business even if I have to drive further (clearly have to do more research to verify what they're up to).

There are people who come to a forum like this for months and months, see mentions of X-Plan, yet never investigate whether their dealership will accept it, and if so then join an organization offering it, getting ~2% off the price plus a $100 max paperwork fee. Dumbfounding to me.

So for those that espouse getting rid of dealerships because we (the overall we) will pay less, we'll pay more.
 

dbsb3233

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But for everyone else? A non-event. And possibly even bad for the future when demand is lower.
That's where it should get interesting. For the hot new high-demand models, there's pretty much no deal to be had anyway (unless ADM is being added). But how does this effect things down the road when it's a routine vehicle with plenty of supply?

Let's pretend we're talking about something less popular. Like say, an Ecosport instead. And there's no shortages. Are people gonna be happy buying that at MSRP instead of getting the usual discounts that a less popular vehicle typically sells at? Will Ford discount the MSRP when it's not selling well? Will it be a universal price nationally, or will it vary to account for hot/cold markets, or expensive markets, or remote markets where it costs more for most everything?

And here's a biggie... lot inventory. Will we even be able to buy an EV off the lot? Kinda sounds like this is a preorder-only thing, meaning no ability to buy an EV without waiting weeks/months to get it. That's a non-issue at the moment since all of them have long waitlists, but that will return to normal at some point.

Lots of questions. Pros and cons to both methods. Personally I'm at the point now where I can afford to pay a little extra for the simplicity of a direct order (that's effectively what I did anyway buying my Mach-E with X-Plan), so I'll be OK with direct sales. But there's sure to be some downsides to it as well.
 


Dr Obnxs

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Maybe. GM did this with Saturn (non-negotiable price) and we see where that went.


Aside: While Saturn didn't negotiate, I was able to get a good price on one because my daughter played high school with the daughter of a GM VP. The sales manager told me the price I got was considerably better than what he could buy one for as an employee. The old adage "it's not what you know, but who you know" played out in this case.
Saturn died for two reasons neither of which was fixed pricing. Customers loved it.

Other GM devisions undermined Saturn internally because they feared the Saturn model and the plastic body panels had high thermal expansion coefficients relative to steel so panel gap control was an issue.

The internal fighting lead to resource starvation that put them on a death spiral of cost cutting that resulted in crappy cars.

The no haggle pricing was one of the good things that came out of Saturn.
 

Mach1E

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That's where it should get interesting. For the hot new high-demand models, there's pretty much no deal to be had anyway (unless ADM is being added). But how does this effect things down the road when it's a routine vehicle with plenty of supply?

Let's pretend we're talking about something less popular. Like say, an Ecosport instead. And there's no shortages. Are people gonna be happy buying that at MSRP instead of getting the usual discounts that a less popular vehicle typically sells at? Will Ford discount the MSRP when it's not selling well? Will it be a universal price nationally, or will it vary to account for hot/cold markets, or expensive markets, or remote markets where it costs more for most everything?

And here's a biggie... lot inventory. Will we even be able to buy an EV off the lot? Kinda sounds like this is a preorder-only thing, meaning no ability to buy an EV without waiting weeks/months to get it. That's a non-issue at the moment since all of them have long waitlists, but that will return to normal at some point.

Lots of questions. Pros and cons to both methods. Personally I'm at the point now where I can afford to pay a little extra for the simplicity of a direct order (that's effectively what I did anyway buying my Mach-E with X-Plan), so I'll be OK with direct sales. But there's sure to be some downsides to it as well.
Rebates can answer some of these questions but not all.

Rebates are slow to react to market changes and don’t adequately address the demand differences in different markets.

Nebraska and California for example will have different demands for different models.

Definitely pros and cons to each model.

However, like most socialistic policies, “equal for everyone” usually means “equally worse.”

In this case, we all pay the same price, but it’s likely higher.
 

Mach1E

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Saturn died for two reasons neither of which was fixed pricing. Customers loved it.

Other GM devisions undermined Saturn internally because they feared the Saturn model and the plastic body panels had high thermal expansion coefficients relative to steel so panel gap control was an issue.

The internal fighting lead to resource starvation that put them on a death spiral of cost cutting that resulted in crappy cars.

The no haggle pricing was one of the good things that came out of Saturn.
Saturn actually died for 1 reason:

It only had a single profitable year. And that was in the early 90s.

You can only run at a loss for so long.
 

Dr Obnxs

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While some would surely want to opt out, why would they want to miss out on opportunities for more work? Especially knowing EV owners tend to have higher incomes and able to afford services.
Training and tool set costs. They have to invest A LOT to become service certified. Same thing happened when Audi made Al bodies and the bonding in the R8. Frame issues couldn't be repaired everywhere.
 

Mach1E

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I think many of these comments are pretty naive. You can't take a tiny subset of humanity (a forum) and extrapolate that on to the general population. The reality is that a good portion of humanity isn't very bright, and doesn't do any research to buy anything, or manage their finances, or their lives. They don't know to negotiate on things, much less how to, nor how to understand if they're getting a good deal or not. As an example, a huge portion of vehicle buyers negotiates on payment, not price of the new vehicle or net price with a trade-in.
Usually I agree with you, but on this comment I think you’re off….. like waaaay off.

And this doesn’t come from reading forum comments, it comes from years of personal professional experience.

I spent a couple years as a manager of an appliance and electronics store. My job included approving all pricing deals.

In those two years, guess how many people came in, pointed at what they wanted and paid the listed price without negotiating.

Answer: one.

And it was actually so unusual that a woman came in, said I’d like to buy that big screen Tv and paid with a check that I knew something odd was up. Copied the drivers license (which only kinda looked like her). Called the bank. Sure enough….. stolen checkbook. Police picked her up as she came for the tv.

My other experience is 8 years doing advertising for car dealers. I would sit with the managers to build the ads and watched literally thousands of negotiations.

Everyone haggled. Everyone knew the rebates and invoice and whatever. They all had looked up kbb values etc.

The people who don’t do any research, pay sticker price and don’t haggle?

A few many exist, but they are few and far between.
 

Dr Obnxs

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Actually, it’s whom you know.

Negotiated pricing worked well for dealers in the pre-Internet era, when they had far more information than consumers. In todays world everyone who isn’t an idiot pays about the same.

What we really need is the repeal of state laws that make it illegal for anyone but a dealer to sell a new car. My dream is to buy my next car on Amazon. I already have their in-garage delivery for packages, so I’m ready to wake up one morning with a new car in there.
Isn't Bezos rich enough already?
 

Chicago-E

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all fine and dandy until supply catches up with demand
 

Mach1E

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Isn't Bezos rich enough already?
I know right?

And manufacturer direct isn’t any better than a dealer model.

Just look at the boat market. You have a ton of dealer and a ton of manufacturer direct.

Manufacturer direct = long wait times (1-2 years right now), high prices and more difficult to service (ship your boat 3
States away for major service). Customer service is better or worse depending on the manufacturer.

Dealer model- buy off the lot (pre-Covid), service locally, and cheaper prices (more competition). Service quality depends on the dealer. Downside? Boats are less custom, which can be very important in a boat.
 

Dr Obnxs

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Saturn actually died for 1 reason:

It only had a single profitable year. And that was in the early 90s.

You can only run at a loss for so long.
But why did they have only one profitable year? I was speaking to the root causes and you're speaking to the consiquences. They were torpedoed internally. This lead to the unprofitability that caused the death spiral.
 

JoeDimwit

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Sorry Joe, I disagree with you. I believe you are only protected on the purchase order price. The dealer who loads up the MME with extra nonsense can do it at will. The dealer would love for you to reject the MME so he can sell it for more $$$$.
If you have an agreement to purchase a vehicle at a price, and they have accepted your deposit, they can’t just change the deal after that point without your consent.
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