FordPass & PAAK use cancelled unless you give away ALL personal and real-time driving data ?!

[Blue PonyE]

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[Vulnox]

Privacy concerns are legitimate, as is how that data can be used. You see it with Tesla where someone claims AutoPilot caused a crash, but Tesla has all the data and can share it as needed (or potentially hide it as useful) when it comes to what happened.

The complex part that isn't always obvious from a EULA is what part of the vehicle it references. When Ford has you agree to share with third parties, that doesn't exactly mean that Ford is selling all of your data any chance they can to anyone that asks. Those types of claims usually relate to offered services, like Alexa or Ford's insurance program where your rates are determined by driving behavior.

Since Alexa is "newer" to the connected services family, an update to the EULA makes sense. You are free to not activate Alexa, and there is no evidence your information is shared with Amazon if you don't.

So I agree with you it's good to be cautious, but don't believe Ford's EULA for FordPass is covering them selling all your info, just covering them for providing your info to their partners, like Amazon or Sirius, as you make use of those services.

Now, that aside, I think you have no leg to stand on with your argument against software changes potentially requiring a new phone. You may not like it, but that type of thing is present in every area of tech. Just recently the last of the major cell carriers shut down their 3G network equipment. When we had our Focus Electric it still used the 3G MyFord Mobile modem, and we got a notice that Ford would cover the labor costs, but we would have to buy the 4G modem, cost was about $400.

WEP is a form of WiFi security that was the standard for a while in the early days of WiFi, but now using it is so insecure you may as well just leave your network open if that's all you use. Some newer access points don't even let you configure it. Same with 802.11a or 802.11b wireless specs.

So Ford saying, hey at some point we may need to increase the security standards of PaaK to a point where your device may not have the capability to support whatever that security standard is, like some newer bluetooth Profile, so to continue to use PaaK you have to get a device that supports it, is not unreasonable. To a point it's the responsible thing to do. Because if Ford let insecure tech continue, they would look like Kia/Hyundai right now where the rate of their vehicle theft has some insurance companies refusing to insure the vehicles. Ford is absolutely in the right to make clear there may need to be changes made that require hardware side changes on your end.

You may not like it, but that's the reality of a complex tech world. The software and the hardware evolve fast, as do the security concerns. It has a lot of benefits but also some not insignificant downsides.

 

[Hammered]

Privacy concerns are legitimate, as is how that data can be used....

Correct. Your data legally is also things like individual part performance in the vehicle. LG makes the batteries and motors. If ford shares the vehicle specific data regarding their operation, that's legally sharing your data.

I currently have the insurance thing running, and while my other vehicles yield over 30% additional discount, the MME doesn't get any as the whole 7.7mph/s delta for braking and accelerating have nuked it. Speed is NOT captured, but time of driving is. 12a-5a docks you as "night driving". I'm going to put the MME on its own policy so my other vehicles can enjoy a 30%+ discount. Keep in mind that it's a ~90 day 1-time data reporting. That data is however completely viewable on the insurance website with a map of each and every trip and the events that occur. SPEED is not captured, though can be inferred by traveling x mile in y time = avg speed. They won't give me the exact details of what's captured, only those residing in the DPRC (cali) are able to obtain it.

One of the dumber aspects of the program is that each 7.7mph/s reduction or increase are their own instances. If you do a max acceleration of 0-77mph, that's 10 hit points, not 1. Same for braking. Cruising on the interstate and have to stop suddenly? 80-0 = 10 event points.

The "idling" dock is stupid too -- if you turn on your car to listen to audio or something -- if it hits 3 minutes, 1 point dock. Yes, even if you're not actually sitting in traffic.

 

[mburtsvt]

Lots of times I'll click thru software EULAs, but I read this one because I actually DON'T want updates because I don't like the side-effects and I'm pretty happy with existing versions of FP and Sync.

I'll take a series (many) screenshots if I have time and post so others can review what they may have accepted without knowing it, because I sure as shit will not Accept these terms.

SO you're going to take all of the screenshots with your smart phone? How are them TOS workin out for you. Welcome to the new world order - you are going to love it.

 

[Mirak]

You must unplug the TCU entirely -- it's always on. Alternatively, unplug the antennas from it then it can't talk to anything unless it's stupidly close.

Similar concept to that missing malaysian airlines 777. They didn't pay for the TCU service on the engines, but it was still calling home which is how they knew where to search.

But they didn’t find the plane. Because it landed at Diego Garcia. That’s what I heard.

 

[Skip Towne]

I got a message today when I fired up FordPass, that I HAD to 'accept' and waive ALL privacy to my location, speed, sensor data, Wallet... even voice recordings! ....and Ford could sell any of it to anybody they want. AND they could update software without my knowledge or consent, lock/un-lock my car remotely and presumable change any settings they want whenever they want. There is NO recourse, you MUST accept or discontinue use of FordPass. By the way, you also re obligated to update phone and computer to be compatible with 'current version' of FordPass, and they get to force updates of FordPass that would basically require me to buy a new phone? There is SO much wrong with this.

There is an interesting exception in the fine print.... all this applies to individuals only; company vehicles are exempt. Gee.... wonder why?

How can this be legal?

I bought the vehicle with certain expectations of functionality, optional updates, and some degree of privacy as to my specific location, speed, and driving habits.

The ONLY function of FordPass that I use is PAAK. If my phone will not work as Key without FordPass, then Ford is removing functionality that was present when I bought the vehicle. I don't want any updates to FordPass or Sync, I *should* be able to continue using my current functionality 'in perpetuity' shouldn't I ?

Is anybody else pissed off about this?

What would be the appropriate Entity to complain to about invasion of Privacy? I don't want Ford to use MY location or other personal information for their profit without my permission.... But I also don't want to give up existing functionality of PAAK. But I will if there is no alternative to protect my data from resale and my car from remote control.

I hope @Ford Motor Company will watch this thread and reverse their Policy on this.... before there is a class action lawsuit, or complaints to the US General Attourney, or whoever is supposed to protect our rights to reasonable privacy and re-sale of personal information.

In the meantime, I am removing the wi-fi connection from my vehicle, and going back to using a Fob I guess. Which I just checked, and it has a dead battery (within 2 years of ownership), and it hasn't even been used! But now I'll have to ask my Dealership for the 2nd Fob that was authorized for those of us that were delivered only one.

I got a message today when I fired up FordPass, that I HAD to 'accept' and waive ALL privacy to my location, speed, sensor data, Wallet... even voice recordings! ....and Ford could sell any of it to anybody they want. AND they could update software without my knowledge or consent, lock/un-lock my car remotely and presumable change any settings they want whenever they want. There is NO recourse, you MUST accept or discontinue use of FordPass. By the way, you also re obligated to update phone and computer to be compatible with 'current version' of FordPass, and they get to force updates of FordPass that would basically require me to buy a new phone? There is SO much wrong with this.

There is an interesting exception in the fine print.... all this applies to individuals only; company vehicles are exempt. Gee.... wonder why?

How can this be legal?

I bought the vehicle with certain expectations of functionality, optional updates, and some degree of privacy as to my specific location, speed, and driving habits.

The ONLY function of FordPass that I use is PAAK. If my phone will not work as Key without FordPass, then Ford is removing functionality that was present when I bought the vehicle. I don't want any updates to FordPass or Sync, I *should* be able to continue using my current functionality 'in perpetuity' shouldn't I ?

Is anybody else pissed off about this?

What would be the appropriate Entity to complain to about invasion of Privacy? I don't want Ford to use MY location or other personal information for their profit without my permission.... But I also don't want to give up existing functionality of PAAK. But I will if there is no alternative to protect my data from resale and my car from remote control.

I hope @Ford Motor Company will watch this thread and reverse their Policy on this.... before there is a class action lawsuit, or complaints to the US General Attourney, or whoever is supposed to protect our rights to reasonable privacy and re-sale of personal information.

In the meantime, I am removing the wi-fi connection from my vehicle, and going back to using a Fob I guess. Which I just checked, and it has a dead battery (within 2 years of ownership), and it hasn't even been used! But now I'll have to ask my Dealership for the 2nd Fob that was authorized for those of us that were delivered only one.

I saw the same agreement request the other day. While I commend you for reading it more thoroughly than I did, I was not too concerned.

I imagined many of those requests are asking permission to use data that is necessary to provide services I expect in FordPass. I.E How can FordPass provide useful map information if I refuse to tell them where I am? How can they report EV Driving history without analyzing driving history and habits.

Yes, using the app someday might require a more modern phone than I have now, but apps, protocols, networks, security requirements all change over time and I wouldn't expect that using FP today would in effect make a contract that my Note 10 phone will work with FP in a decade - any more than I'd expect it to work on my old Blackberry today.

For me, the fact that thet are not sharing my info with 3rd party services is good enough for me. YMMV

 

[JohnFoxeSheets]

did you get it on your version of FordPass?
Did YOU read it?
What's your opinion?

I tried to read (or at least peruse) them, but they were a tad light on the details:

(Yes, this is real.) I'm not sure if this means they can do anything or nothing with my data...

 

[JohnFoxeSheets]

Add top ribbon frunk access as well and I’m in on that deal too

Once again proof that all threads lead to your frunk, Jim.

 

[Hammered]

But they didn’t find the plane. Because it landed at Diego Garcia. That’s what I heard.

Occasionally its parts wash up on shore.

 

[pouyafrankie]

Privacy lawyer here. I'll just add that the term "sell" or "sale" generally has a much different meaning in privacy legislation than the term you're acustomed to. Generally, everytime data is shared with a vendor, except with very specific exceptions, the data transfer is considered a "sale".

For example, Ford may have a contract with a vendor to proceed your location data in order to show you your vehicle's location in the FordPass app. Ford may have limitations in the contract, for example, that limit that vendor from sharing that data with anyone else, and usually they expressly limit any use of that data for advertising purposes. However, if that vendor has a similar relationship with, let's say, GM - and they keep those GM location data points in the same system that they keep the Ford data, then that vendor is considered to have commingled the data with a different data source. Commingling data, even with contractual limitations around how that data can be used, effectively makes the transfer of data from Ford a "sale" to that vendor. But again, just because it was a "sale", doesn't mean that the vendor can do whatever they want with it.

This was a huge oversimplified explanation of a hypothetical scenario, but I hope this explains a tiny bit.

Blame the California regulators for coming up with such confusing language.

 

[MachEnthusiast]

I don't know why anyone gets all fired up about data privacy for stuff like this. Once you get a smart phone you're in way further than sharing data with the Ford app to help it do its job. You do you, but this is a non-issue. When you bought the vehicle you didn't sign any sort of agreement that said "and you'll never change the agreement terms of your app on me."

They didn't take anything away from you. You have a likely reason you're taking it away from yourself. Good thing is the car came with a Fob. We can debate the logic of that reason if you share it, but what I said before is objective truth.

 

[heisnuts]

Oh man. I wonder if the reason this all came about is that Ford just wants to track my car to see where and how many times I go out in the back country roads . If that really is why I am sorry. I would have been more than happy to tell them it is almost every weekend and would have even invited them along for a Sunday 3 hour cruise .

 

[Gimme_my_MME]

Oh man. I wonder if the reason this all came about is that Ford just wants to track my car to see where and how many times I go out in the back country roads . If that really is why I am sorry. I would have been more than happy to tell them it is almost every weekend and would have even invited them along for a Sunday 3 hour cruise .

 

[HOLOTYPE]

I don't have time to dig thru specifics today or near term.... for now I have:
- not accepted
- will put a new battery in my one Fob, and try to get a second from Dealer
- turned off auto-updates
- turned off wi-fi

So let me get this straight…

You start a whole post, SOLELY to complain about the new TOS, citing things that make you not want to accept it.

You ask others if they happened to read it, and if so what their opinions are.

I happen to read it and provide opinions.

But, you don’t have time to dig through specifics yet continue to share your version/interpretation of the TOS.

Look, I’m not trying to invalidate your concerns. If they are still concerns to you then I am glad you are taking the decision to not accept. But, it’s really hard to take this discussion seriously when your answer to someone whom had reviewed the TOS is that you don’t have the time. If anything, maybe your thread will accomplish getting more people to read the TOS than ever before!

 

[ARK]

I don't know why anyone gets all fired up about data privacy for stuff like this. Once you get a smart phone you're in way further than sharing data with the Ford app to help it do its job. You do you, but this is a non-issue. When you bought the vehicle you didn't sign any sort of agreement that said "and you'll never change the agreement terms of your app on me."

They didn't take anything away from you. You have a likely reason you're taking it away from yourself. Good thing is the car came with a Fob. We can debate the logic of that reason if you share it, but what I said before is objective truth.

I agree with this, it’s the world we live in.

I figure that if it’s a total stranger looking at the data, I’d rather they didn’t but I don’t really care that much if they do. Like if some engineer in Dearborn looks up my driving history or stations I listen to or whatever, it doesn’t mean much if I don’t know this person and will never encounter them in my life.

Which is why where privacy is concerned, I think the bigger focus should be local. Do you trust your accountant to keep your financial condition confidential from your neighbor? Your doctor’s office to not blab to acquaintances about what medical issues you may have? The school administration to not spill the beans about your kid to some mutual friend?

That in my opinion should be the focus, not whether some rando in Silicon Valley that you’ll never meet knows you go to Chick-Fil-A twice a day or what have you.

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