Ho-Hum, Tesla Again, If Anyone Cares

All Hat No Cattle

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June 10, 2022
Wall Street Journal

U.S. auto-safety regulators have escalated their investigation into emergency-scene crashes involving Tesla Inc.’s TSLA -4.34%▼ Autopilot, a critical step for determining whether to order a safety recall.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said in a notice published Thursday that it was expanding a probe begun last August into a series of crashes in which Tesla vehicles using Autopilot struck first-responder vehicles stopped for roadway emergencies.

The agency said it was upgrading its earlier investigation to an engineering analysis after identifying new crashes involving Autopilot and emergency-response vehicles.
NHTSA also said it has expanded its examination of Autopilot to include a wider range of crashes, not only those at emergency scenes. The agency said it would further assess how drivers interact with Autopilot and the degree to which it might reduce motorists’ attentiveness.
Forensic data available for 11 of the crashes showed that drivers failed to take evasive action in the two to five seconds before the collision, the agency said.
The investigation covers an estimated 830,000 Tesla vehicles made from 2014 to 2021, including the Model 3, Model S, Model X and Model Y.
NHTSA said in its filing that it has identified 15 injuries and one fatality related to the crashes.
Tesla didn’t respond to a request for comment. The electric-car maker’s stock closed around 0.9% lower at $719.12 on Thursday.
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Autopilot, Tesla’s name for the advanced driver-assistance technology used in its vehicles, is designed to help drivers with tasks such as steering and keeping a safe distance from other vehicles. Tesla instructs drivers using the system to pay attention to the road and keep their hands on the wheel.

The electric-car maker has long maintained that driving with Autopilot engaged is safer than doing so without it. Tesla points to internal data showing that crashes were less common when drivers were using Autopilot. Some researchers have criticized Tesla’s methodology.

In opening its initial probe last year, NHTSA said that it had identified 11 crashes since early 2018 in which a Tesla vehicle using Autopilot struck one or more vehicles involved in an emergency-response situation. In its latest filing, the agency said it discovered six additional crashes involving Teslas and first-responder vehicles where Autopilot was in use.
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moparguy

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Looks like the government is going to ramp up its war on Tesla.
 

Mach-E VLOG

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Looks like the government is going to ramp up its war on Tesla.
A war on Tesla? I don't see it like that. This particular investigation is the result of multiple crashes involving stationary objects while cars were in AutoPilot mode. Some of those stationary objects happen to be emergency vehicles. To be honest, I think all ADAS have a hard time identifying stationary objects so it will be interesting what happens with this investigation.
 

moparguy

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A war on Tesla? I don't see it like that. This particular investigation is the result of multiple crashes involving stationary objects while cars were in AutoPilot mode. Some of those stationary objects happen to be emergency vehicles. To be honest, I think all ADAS have a hard time identifying stationary objects so it will be interesting what happens with this investigation.
Because they disagree with his political reviews, this is the typical way of governments declaring war on their opponents, as you can see, those accidents are not new, they go back to 2018, but in 2018 Musk's political views weren't like today, or at least he wasn't vocal like he is today.
 

Jonno21

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Don't forget that it is the driver's ultimate responsibility NOT to crash at this stage of ADAS development. I wonder in how many instances of these crashes the driver was playing with their phone, the infotainment system, distracted by kids in the car, fell asleep at the wheel, drink-driving or just being an idiot. I'm not a Tesla fanboy but there has to be some context.

Many BMW drivers would benefit from ADAS as they drive like idiots anyway. Tailgating (eh..what) non functioning indicators (does my car have them?)
 


vinny2487

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Because they disagree with his political reviews, this is the typical way of governments declaring war on their opponents, as you can see, those accidents are not new, they go back to 2018, but in 2018 Musk's political views weren't like today, or at least he wasn't vocal like he is today.
Or, stay with me here, maybe NHTSA is doing its job? Not everything is "House of Cards" level of political theater.
 

tannerk89

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Or, stay with me here, maybe NHTSA is doing its job? Not everything is "House of Cards" level of political theater.
How often does NHTSA investigate 11 crashes from the other auto manufacturers? I really don’t know the answer but it’s unlikely that this attention is just from NHTSA doing it’s job”. I’m pretty sure there are 11 accidents caused by a feature on F150’s or Silverado’s but no major announcement from NHTSA into investigating them.
 

Fordmaybe

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Because they disagree with his political reviews, this is the typical way of governments declaring war on their opponents, as you can see, those accidents are not new, they go back to 2018, but in 2018 Musk's political views weren't like today, or at least he wasn't vocal like he is today.
Is Tesla taken action or recalling cars that are killing people In their feature of autopilot? If they are not who is going to make them accountable to do something ?
 

Mach-E VLOG

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Don't forget that it is the driver's ultimate responsibility NOT to crash at this stage of ADAS development. I wonder in how many instances of these crashes the driver was playing with their phone, the infotainment system, distracted by kids in the car, fell asleep at the wheel, drink-driving or just being an idiot. I'm not a Tesla fanboy but there has to be some context.

Many BMW drivers would benefit from ADAS as they drive like idiots anyway. Tailgating (eh..what) non functioning indicators (does my car have them?)
That is why there are driver management systems. Tesla only recently activated their in-cabin cameras and they do a poor job compared to the infrared eye-tracking that other companies use. Add to that the name of the system and the demos that Tesla still shows one their website that says the driver is only there because of regulatory requirements. That's led many people to believe they can be distracted. I've had many Tesla owners brag about how the car drives itself and how they fool the driver management systems.
 

Mach-E VLOG

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How often does NHTSA investigate 11 crashes from the other auto manufacturers? I really don’t know the answer but it’s unlikely that this attention is just from NHTSA doing it’s job”. I’m pretty sure there are 11 accidents caused by a feature on F150’s or Silverado’s but no major announcement from NHTSA into investigating them.
Take a look at the NHTSA website. They conducted 35 investigations last year that ranged in severity. I think there are several reasons why this one is being investigated.

1) Police and other first responders died. It is just the way it is that those deaths get much more attention.
2) The feature in question is specifically designed and advertised that it will prevent that type of collision from happening.
3) Tesla is considered a leader for ADAS and as the entire industry introduces ADAS features, the NHTSA has a responsibility that it is being done in the safest manner.
 

tannerk89

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Take a look at the NHTSA website. They conducted 35 investigations last year that ranged in severity. I think there are several reasons why this one is being investigated.

1) Police and other first responders died. It is just the way it is that those deaths get much more attention.
2) The feature in question is specifically designed and advertised that it will prevent that type of collision from happening.
3) Tesla is considered a leader for ADAS and as the entire industry introduces ADAS features, the NHTSA has a responsibility that it is being done in the safest manner.
First, I don’t think you’re wrong and It’s not that I disagree with them looking into Tesla to improve safety, I just disagree with preemptively publicizing and essentially attempting to damage a new auto manufacturers credibility and threaten innovation without a thorough internal review on NHTSAs side. Barriers to entry into auto market were high enough as is and vehicle tech was largely stagnant until Tesla came around. The investigation eventually lead NHTSA to agree with Tesla several years ago and they reopened again following issues that made the news that weren’t out of the ordinary except that they involved Tesla. NHTSA is so far behind in understanding how things work they should be working with Tesla and other auto manufacturers instead of against them.


1) The only fatality in the 11 Tesla crashes involving autopilot and traffic aware cruise control was of the driver of a model 3, no first responders according to NTSB.
Also:
“According to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, in 2005 approximately 390 first responders were killed after being struck by traffic while responding to an accident scene.”

From OSHA spreadsheet in 2019 i found 80 FR fatalities due to traffic from the effort I was willing to put into the search. Very small percentage of the fatalities and accidents involving FRs is from Tesla. The details matter and NHTSA appears to be ignoring them, likely due to lobbying, but who knows.

And that’s just fatalities, not all accidents involving FRs which is the “info” that lead NHTSA to target Tesla.
 

Mach-E VLOG

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The NHTSA lists their investigations publicly -- all of them. If they were investigating Tesla and hid that fact, then that would be special treatment.

Maybe your issue is really with the media. But they report on Tesla crashes more widely because Tesla is the one claiming their vehicles are way safer and that AutoPilot is 8 times safer. You make bold claims and you are sure to get attention. Then you add Tesla's claim they will have 1 million robotaxis by the end of the year and the media is even more critical. (Oh wait, that was 1 million robotaxis by the end of 2020.)
 

Mach-Lee

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NHTSA is going to be on Tesla's ass until they take driver monitoring seriously. Autopilot still works if you cover the monitoring camera! Some older models don't have cameras or they aren't being used.

Waiting for the day the recall is issued that disables Autopilot on vehicles without functioning driver monitoring. Steering wheel torque is not adequate enough to determine if the driver is paying attention, they could be passed out drunk with their hand on the wheel and the car would keep going.
 

vinny2487

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First, I don’t think you’re wrong and It’s not that I disagree with them looking into Tesla to improve safety, I just disagree with preemptively publicizing and essentially attempting to damage a new auto manufacturers credibility and threaten innovation without a thorough internal review on NHTSAs side. Barriers to entry into auto market were high enough as is and vehicle tech was largely stagnant until Tesla came around. The investigation eventually lead NHTSA to agree with Tesla several years ago and they reopened again following issues that made the news that weren’t out of the ordinary except that they involved Tesla. NHTSA is so far behind in understanding how things work they should be working with Tesla and other auto manufacturers instead of against them.


1) The only fatality in the 11 Tesla crashes involving autopilot and traffic aware cruise control was of the driver of a model 3, no first responders according to NTSB.
Also:
“According to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, in 2005 approximately 390 first responders were killed after being struck by traffic while responding to an accident scene.”

From OSHA spreadsheet in 2019 i found 80 FR fatalities due to traffic from the effort I was willing to put into the search. Very small percentage of the fatalities and accidents involving FRs is from Tesla. The details matter and NHTSA appears to be ignoring them, likely due to lobbying, but who knows.

And that’s just fatalities, not all accidents involving FRs which is the “info” that lead NHTSA to target Tesla.
NHTSA lists all of their investigations here. Over 100 investigations dating back to 2020, a good number of them ongoing.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/search-safety-issues#investigation

They're not hiding or preemptively announcing anything. It seems like your problem is more of the media. It's not NHTSA fault the media has chosen to focus on Tesla, mostly because of Tesla's continues claims of how safe their self driving system is.
 
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tannerk89

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NHTSA lists all of their investigations here. Over 100 investigations dating back to 2020, a good number of them ongoing.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/search-safety-issues#investigation

They're not hiding or preemptively announcing anything. It seems like your problem is more of the media. It's not NHTSA fault the media has chosen to focus on Tesla, mostly because of Tesla's continues claims of how safe their self driving system is.
Fair enough, it really is the media response that is the problem I have with these investigations.
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