Advertisement



How Green are Electric Cars?

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
3,484
Reaction score
3,189
Location
Colorado, USA
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2013 Ford Escape
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Some studies indicate that PHEVs are even cleaner!
Wouldn't totally surprise me. Especially if they start building PHEVs with a few more battery miles, which I'm sure they will as battery energy density improves. 50 miles on battery + 300 gas would be a great combo. That would allow the average driver to put 80%+ of their annual miles on electricity, without having to put in batteries that are 6x bigger (with 6x the mining and rare earth materials).

And perhaps even bigger impact is that it actually enables a far wider share of the consumer market. With only a fraction of the infrastructure needed. No DCFC needed. Many wouldn't even need 240V installation.

60% of the market owning PHEVs makes a much bigger collective impact than 30% owning BEVs.
 
Last edited:

JayTee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jeff
Joined
Sep 15, 2020
Messages
529
Reaction score
249
Location
Broomfield, Colorado, USA
First Name
Jeff
Vehicles
Mazda CX-5
Occupation
Sales Analysis
Country flag
Wouldn't totally surprise me. Especially if they start building PHEVs with a few more battery miles, which I'm sure they will as battery energy density improves. 50 miles on battery + 300 gas would be a great combo. That would allow the average driver to put 80%+ of their annual miles on electricity, without having to put in batteries that are 6x bigger (with 6x the mining and rear earth materials).

And perhaps even bigger impact is that it actually enables a far wider share of the consumer market. With only a fraction of the infrastructure needed. No DCFC needed. Many wouldn't even need 240V installation.

60% of the market owning PHEVs makes a much bigger collective impact than 30% owning BEVs.
Ideally the consumer would match the battery range with their own commute. People that only drive 5 mi each way to the office need a smaller battery than somebody that drives 30 mi each way.
 
OP
MerryBrown

MerryBrown

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mary
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
189
Reaction score
357
Location
Northern, CA
First Name
Mary
Vehicles
2018 Ford Escape, Red Ford Mach-E on order
Occupation
Finance
Country flag
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #5
Ideally the consumer would match the battery range with their own commute. People that only drive 5 mi each way to the office need a smaller battery than somebody that drives 30 mi each way.
I don't think it's that cut and dried. People use their cars for more than just commuting. There are weekend shopping trips, vacations, heck even just sightseeing. I have a 5 miles commute but my brother lives over 300 miles away so I want to be able to get to him without having to stop for charging.
 

JayTee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jeff
Joined
Sep 15, 2020
Messages
529
Reaction score
249
Location
Broomfield, Colorado, USA
First Name
Jeff
Vehicles
Mazda CX-5
Occupation
Sales Analysis
Country flag
I don't think it's that cut and dried. People use their cars for more than just commuting. There are weekend shopping trips, vacations, heck even just sightseeing. I have a 5 miles commute but my brother lives over 300 miles away so I want to be able to get to him without having to stop for charging.
Then a phev would be perfect for you, since it's the least expensive way to accomplish that.
 

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
3,065
Reaction score
4,488
Location
Maryland
First Name
Mark
Vehicles
Mach-E FE reserved, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Tacoma
Country flag
Here's the Union of Concerned Scientists study they reference:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichm...s-really-better-for-the-climate-yes-heres-why

logo.png

[ BLOG ] UNION OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS


electric-cars-charging1500x900.jpg

joel-t/iStock
Are Electric Vehicles Really Better for the Climate? Yes. Here’s Why
DAVID REICHMUTH, SENIOR VEHICLES ENGINEER | FEBRUARY 11, 2020, 2:08 PM EDT


One of the questions I’m most frequently asked about electric vehicles (EV) is: “Are they really a cleaner option?” While it’s obvious that a fully-electric vehicle eliminates tailpipe emissions, people often wonder about the global warming emissions from generating the electricity to charge an EV. The latest data affirms that driving on electricity produces significantly fewer emissions than using gasoline and is getting better over time.

Electricity power plant emissions data for 2018 has just been released and we’ve crunched the latest numbers. Based on where EVs have been sold, driving the average EV produces global warming pollution equal to a gasoline vehicle that gets 88 miles per gallon (mpg) fuel economy. That’s significantly better than the most efficient gasoline car (58 mpg) and far cleaner than the average new gasoline car (31 mpg) or truck (21 mpg) sold in the US. And our estimate for EV emissions is almost 10 percent lower than our previous estimate two years ago. Now 94 percent of people in the US live where driving an EV produces less emissions than using a 50 mpg gasoline car.

EV emissions are lower across the country

ucsusa_30220343-1024x624.png

The mpg (miles per gallon) value listed for each region is the combined city/highway fuel economy rating of a gasoline vehicle that would have global warming emissions equivalent to driving an EV. Regional global warming emissions ratings are based on 2018 power plant data in the EPA’s eGRID2018 database (released January 2020). Comparison includes gasoline and electricity fuel production emissions estimates for processes like extraction, transportation, and refining using Argonne National Laboratory’s GREET 2019 model. The 88 mpg US average is a sales-weighted average based on where EVs were sold in 2011 through September 2019.

To compare the climate-changing emissions from electric vehicles to gasoline-powered cars, we analyzed all the emissions from fueling and driving both types of vehicles. For a gasoline car, that means looking at emissions from extracting crude oil from the ground, moving the oil to a refinery, making gasoline and transporting gasoline to filling stations, in addition to combustion emissions from the tailpipe.

For electric vehicles, the calculation includes both power plant emissions and emissions from the production of coal, natural gas and other fuels power plants use. Our analysis relies on emissions estimates for gasoline and fuels production from Argonne National Laboratory (using the GREET2019 model) and power plant emissions data released by the US EPA. The data, released in January 2020, tallied the emissions from US power plants during 2018.

When looking at all these factors, driving the average EV is responsible for fewer global warming emissions than the average new gasoline car everywhere in the US. In some parts of the country, driving the average new gasoline car will produce 4 to 7 times the emissions of the average EV. For example, the average EV driven in upstate New York has emissions equal to a (hypothetical) 231 mpg gasoline car. And in California, a gasoline car would need to get 122 mpg to have emissions as low as the average EV.

Compared to our last analysis that used 2016 power plant data, emissions from EVs are on average 10 percent lower. The reductions have come from two primary sources:
  • The emissions rate from power plants in the US fell over 5 percent between 2016 and 2018. The drop comes from lower generation from coal and increases in natural gas, wind, and solar.
  • The average efficiency of EVs sold to-date in the US improved since our last analysis (by about 6 percent). This was due to the sales of Tesla’s Model 3, one of the most efficient vehicles on the market. The Model 3 now makes up more than 20 percent of all EVs (and more than one third of battery electric cars) ever sold in the US, so its efficiency has a noticeable impact on calculation of average EV efficiency.

A decade of improvement
The change from our first analysis of global warming emissions from EVs and gasoline vehicles in 2012 (using 2009 powerplant data) is even more impressive. In our initial assessment, less than half the US lived where an EV produced fewer emissions than a 50 mpg car, while now nearly all of the US falls in that category. The improvement has been driven partially by increasing EV efficiency, but the major contribution has been from the reduction in electricity generation from coal power plants. Electricity from coal has fallen from 45% to 28% in less than a decade. At the same time, solar and wind electricity has grown from less than 2% to 8% in 2018.

200920162018
% of US population living in a “Best” region for EVs (>50 mpg equivalent)45%75%94%
Fraction of electricity grid regions where an EV is lower emission than a 50mpg vehicle9 of 2616 of 2622 of 26
fraction of US electricity from coal power plants45%30%28%
fraction of US electricity from wind and solar power2%7%8%

Car buyers have options to be even cleaner by choosing a more efficient EV
Tesla-model-3-1024x768.jpg

The Tesla Model 3 is one of the most efficient EV models available. Efficient EVs help minimize the global warming emissions from driving. (David Reichmuth / UCS)

The average EV is cleaner than the average new gasoline vehicle everywhere in the US. But if you choose the most efficient EV available, your emissions reductions from switching from gasoline to electricity will be even higher. For example, driving the 2020 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus(0.24 kWh/mile) in California has emissions equal to a 161 mpg gasoline car, or less than a fifth of the global warming emissions of the average new gasoline car and over 60 percent less than even the most efficient gasoline car. And in upstate New York, the emissions from driving an EV can be as low as one tenth those of an average new gasoline car.

As the grid continues to get cleaner, EVs, both new and used, will get cleaner as well. This is a distinct advantage EVs have over gasoline-fueled vehicles: their emissions get better over time as the grid gets cleaner. Gasoline vehicles’ fuel economy is fixed and therefore so are their emissions, as long as they rely primarily on petroleum for fuel.
ucsusa_87036240-1024x624.png

Driving the most efficient EV available in the US means lower emissions than any gasoline car in nearly all of the US. In Upstate New York, emissions from driving the cleanest EV are one tenth that of the average new gasoline vehicle.

Larger EVs can still lead to lower emissions
audi-etron-1024x834.jpg

The Audi e-tron is an all-electric SUV. It’s less efficient than many other EVs due to its size, but still has a global warming emissions benefit relative to the comparable gasoline SUV model. (credit:UCS/Reichmuth)

Larger EVs, like SUVs and pickup trucks are slowly becoming available, and more are promised soon, including an electric version of the Hummer SUV. Larger vehicles, whether gasoline or electric-powered, are less efficient. However, switching from gasoline to electricity still has an advantage.

Take for example the Audi e-tron EV SUV: using 0.46 kWh per mile, it is one of the least efficient EVs available. However, the most comparable gasoline model, the Audi Q8 gasoline-fueled SUV is also inefficient for a gasoline vehicle, with a fuel economy rating of 18 mpg. The Audi e-tron electric SUV will produce less emissions than the gasoline-powered Audi Q8 while driving, even on the dirtiest electric grids in the US. And on the cleanest grids, the electric SUV is responsible for less than a quarter of the global warming emissions of the gasoline SUV. For more than 90 percent of the population, driving the electric version of this vehicle will produce less than half the global warming emissions of the gasoline model.

Audi e-tron EV SUV emissions compared to Audi Q8 gasoline SUV emissionsGreater EV emissions than gasolineUp to 50 percent emissions savings with EV 50 to 75 percent emissions savings with EVOver 75 percent emissions savings with EV
Fraction of US population0%8%73%19%
Population026 million232 million61 million

EVs are one part of reducing transportation emissions
Passenger cars and trucks are a significant source of global warming emissions in the US. Switching from gasoline to electricity is a vital solution for reducing emissions and avoiding the worst impacts of climate change. However, it’s only one of many solutions we need to use. Because many of the cars sold in the next five years will be gasoline-powered, it is important to make sure those vehicles are as clean as possible by having strong fuel economy and emission standards.

Additionally, actions we can take to reduce all driving (whether from gasoline or EVs) will help lower emissions. Sharing rides, using public transit, and making it easier to walk and bike are all important solutions to climate change. But for the personal vehicle trips that we can’t avoid today, switching to an EV can make a big difference in how much global warming emissions we produce and is one of the biggest actions a household can take to reduce their carbon footprint.

Posted in: Vehicles Tags: electric vehicles, EVs, greenhouse gas emissions
Support from UCS members make work like this possible. Will you join us? Help UCS advance independent science for a healthy environment and a safer world.
 

LYTMCQ

Well-Known Member
First Name
Lyt
Joined
Feb 2, 2020
Messages
1,496
Reaction score
698
Location
Portland
First Name
Lyt
Vehicles
Telsa Model 3 LR AWD
Country flag
The measure is how dirty the electric grid in each state.

That's unfair to the EV as people can buy sustainable power from their utility for an additional fee.

What is the MPGe then?

Also many of us put in solar panels, 150% in my case, so I'm powering the house an the car via solar. What's my MPGe?
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
3,484
Reaction score
3,189
Location
Colorado, USA
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2013 Ford Escape
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
I don't think it's that cut and dried. People use their cars for more than just commuting. There are weekend shopping trips, vacations, heck even just sightseeing. I have a 5 miles commute but my brother lives over 300 miles away so I want to be able to get to him without having to stop for charging.
He was referring to PHEV battery range, not BEV. With PHEV it's just about matching battery size to your most common daily usage. Gas can then easily handle the infrequent longer exceptions.
 
OP
MerryBrown

MerryBrown

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mary
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
189
Reaction score
357
Location
Northern, CA
First Name
Mary
Vehicles
2018 Ford Escape, Red Ford Mach-E on order
Occupation
Finance
Country flag
  • Thread starter
  • Thread Starter
  • #12
Here's the Union of Concerned Scientists study they reference:
https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichm...s-really-better-for-the-climate-yes-heres-why

logo.png

[ BLOG ] UNION OF CONCERNED SCIENTISTS


electric-cars-charging1500x900.jpg

joel-t/iStock
Are Electric Vehicles Really Better for the Climate? Yes. Here’s Why
DAVID REICHMUTH, SENIOR VEHICLES ENGINEER | FEBRUARY 11, 2020, 2:08 PM EDT


One of the questions I’m most frequently asked about electric vehicles (EV) is: “Are they really a cleaner option?” While it’s obvious that a fully-electric vehicle eliminates tailpipe emissions, people often wonder about the global warming emissions from generating the electricity to charge an EV. The latest data affirms that driving on electricity produces significantly fewer emissions than using gasoline and is getting better over time.

Electricity power plant emissions data for 2018 has just been released and we’ve crunched the latest numbers. Based on where EVs have been sold, driving the average EV produces global warming pollution equal to a gasoline vehicle that gets 88 miles per gallon (mpg) fuel economy. That’s significantly better than the most efficient gasoline car (58 mpg) and far cleaner than the average new gasoline car (31 mpg) or truck (21 mpg) sold in the US. And our estimate for EV emissions is almost 10 percent lower than our previous estimate two years ago. Now 94 percent of people in the US live where driving an EV produces less emissions than using a 50 mpg gasoline car.

EV emissions are lower across the country

ucsusa_30220343-1024x624.png

The mpg (miles per gallon) value listed for each region is the combined city/highway fuel economy rating of a gasoline vehicle that would have global warming emissions equivalent to driving an EV. Regional global warming emissions ratings are based on 2018 power plant data in the EPA’s eGRID2018 database (released January 2020). Comparison includes gasoline and electricity fuel production emissions estimates for processes like extraction, transportation, and refining using Argonne National Laboratory’s GREET 2019 model. The 88 mpg US average is a sales-weighted average based on where EVs were sold in 2011 through September 2019.

To compare the climate-changing emissions from electric vehicles to gasoline-powered cars, we analyzed all the emissions from fueling and driving both types of vehicles. For a gasoline car, that means looking at emissions from extracting crude oil from the ground, moving the oil to a refinery, making gasoline and transporting gasoline to filling stations, in addition to combustion emissions from the tailpipe.

For electric vehicles, the calculation includes both power plant emissions and emissions from the production of coal, natural gas and other fuels power plants use. Our analysis relies on emissions estimates for gasoline and fuels production from Argonne National Laboratory (using the GREET2019 model) and power plant emissions data released by the US EPA. The data, released in January 2020, tallied the emissions from US power plants during 2018.

When looking at all these factors, driving the average EV is responsible for fewer global warming emissions than the average new gasoline car everywhere in the US. In some parts of the country, driving the average new gasoline car will produce 4 to 7 times the emissions of the average EV. For example, the average EV driven in upstate New York has emissions equal to a (hypothetical) 231 mpg gasoline car. And in California, a gasoline car would need to get 122 mpg to have emissions as low as the average EV.

Compared to our last analysis that used 2016 power plant data, emissions from EVs are on average 10 percent lower. The reductions have come from two primary sources:
  • The emissions rate from power plants in the US fell over 5 percent between 2016 and 2018. The drop comes from lower generation from coal and increases in natural gas, wind, and solar.
  • The average efficiency of EVs sold to-date in the US improved since our last analysis (by about 6 percent). This was due to the sales of Tesla’s Model 3, one of the most efficient vehicles on the market. The Model 3 now makes up more than 20 percent of all EVs (and more than one third of battery electric cars) ever sold in the US, so its efficiency has a noticeable impact on calculation of average EV efficiency.

A decade of improvement
The change from our first analysis of global warming emissions from EVs and gasoline vehicles in 2012 (using 2009 powerplant data) is even more impressive. In our initial assessment, less than half the US lived where an EV produced fewer emissions than a 50 mpg car, while now nearly all of the US falls in that category. The improvement has been driven partially by increasing EV efficiency, but the major contribution has been from the reduction in electricity generation from coal power plants. Electricity from coal has fallen from 45% to 28% in less than a decade. At the same time, solar and wind electricity has grown from less than 2% to 8% in 2018.

200920162018
% of US population living in a “Best” region for EVs (>50 mpg equivalent)45%75%94%
Fraction of electricity grid regions where an EV is lower emission than a 50mpg vehicle9 of 2616 of 2622 of 26
fraction of US electricity from coal power plants45%30%28%
fraction of US electricity from wind and solar power2%7%8%

Car buyers have options to be even cleaner by choosing a more efficient EV
Tesla-model-3-1024x768.jpg

The Tesla Model 3 is one of the most efficient EV models available. Efficient EVs help minimize the global warming emissions from driving. (David Reichmuth / UCS)

The average EV is cleaner than the average new gasoline vehicle everywhere in the US. But if you choose the most efficient EV available, your emissions reductions from switching from gasoline to electricity will be even higher. For example, driving the 2020 Tesla Model 3 Standard Range Plus(0.24 kWh/mile) in California has emissions equal to a 161 mpg gasoline car, or less than a fifth of the global warming emissions of the average new gasoline car and over 60 percent less than even the most efficient gasoline car. And in upstate New York, the emissions from driving an EV can be as low as one tenth those of an average new gasoline car.

As the grid continues to get cleaner, EVs, both new and used, will get cleaner as well. This is a distinct advantage EVs have over gasoline-fueled vehicles: their emissions get better over time as the grid gets cleaner. Gasoline vehicles’ fuel economy is fixed and therefore so are their emissions, as long as they rely primarily on petroleum for fuel.
ucsusa_87036240-1024x624.png

Driving the most efficient EV available in the US means lower emissions than any gasoline car in nearly all of the US. In Upstate New York, emissions from driving the cleanest EV are one tenth that of the average new gasoline vehicle.

Larger EVs can still lead to lower emissions
audi-etron-1024x834.jpg

The Audi e-tron is an all-electric SUV. It’s less efficient than many other EVs due to its size, but still has a global warming emissions benefit relative to the comparable gasoline SUV model. (credit:UCS/Reichmuth)

Larger EVs, like SUVs and pickup trucks are slowly becoming available, and more are promised soon, including an electric version of the Hummer SUV. Larger vehicles, whether gasoline or electric-powered, are less efficient. However, switching from gasoline to electricity still has an advantage.

Take for example the Audi e-tron EV SUV: using 0.46 kWh per mile, it is one of the least efficient EVs available. However, the most comparable gasoline model, the Audi Q8 gasoline-fueled SUV is also inefficient for a gasoline vehicle, with a fuel economy rating of 18 mpg. The Audi e-tron electric SUV will produce less emissions than the gasoline-powered Audi Q8 while driving, even on the dirtiest electric grids in the US. And on the cleanest grids, the electric SUV is responsible for less than a quarter of the global warming emissions of the gasoline SUV. For more than 90 percent of the population, driving the electric version of this vehicle will produce less than half the global warming emissions of the gasoline model.

Audi e-tron EV SUV emissions compared to Audi Q8 gasoline SUV emissionsGreater EV emissions than gasolineUp to 50 percent emissions savings with EV 50 to 75 percent emissions savings with EVOver 75 percent emissions savings with EV
Fraction of US population0%8%73%19%
Population026 million232 million61 million

EVs are one part of reducing transportation emissions
Passenger cars and trucks are a significant source of global warming emissions in the US. Switching from gasoline to electricity is a vital solution for reducing emissions and avoiding the worst impacts of climate change. However, it’s only one of many solutions we need to use. Because many of the cars sold in the next five years will be gasoline-powered, it is important to make sure those vehicles are as clean as possible by having strong fuel economy and emission standards.

Additionally, actions we can take to reduce all driving (whether from gasoline or EVs) will help lower emissions. Sharing rides, using public transit, and making it easier to walk and bike are all important solutions to climate change. But for the personal vehicle trips that we can’t avoid today, switching to an EV can make a big difference in how much global warming emissions we produce and is one of the biggest actions a household can take to reduce their carbon footprint.

Posted in: Vehicles Tags: electric vehicles, EVs, greenhouse gas emissions
Support from UCS members make work like this possible. Will you join us? Help UCS advance independent science for a healthy environment and a safer world.
Thank you so much Mark. The Times article buries the lead. You get to it, but you have to read to the end. Electric cars are absolutely the way to reduce carbon emissions.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

Well-Known Member
First Name
Michael
Joined
Jan 23, 2020
Messages
876
Reaction score
1,542
Location
Ohio
First Name
Michael
Vehicles
2013 Ford Fusion Energi, 2020 Mach-E First Edition (ordered)
Country flag
The measure is how dirty the electric grid in each state.

That's unfair to the EV as people can buy sustainable power from their utility for an additional fee.

What is the MPGe then?

Also many of us put in solar panels, 150% in my case, so I'm powering the house an the car via solar. What's my MPGe?
in some places (*cough*my part of Ohio*cough*), it's possible to buy clean electricity for less because of how competition and cost-to-generate work out. In my case, AEP's clean electricity offer is cheaper than FirstEnergy's native generation, by about $0.01 per kWh, which is substantial discount (well over 10%).

I'm looking at solar at some point - maybe next summer.
 

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
3,065
Reaction score
4,488
Location
Maryland
First Name
Mark
Vehicles
Mach-E FE reserved, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Tacoma
Country flag
in some places (*cough*my part of Ohio*cough*), it's possible to buy clean electricity for less because of how competition and cost-to-generate work out. In my case, AEP's clean electricity offer is cheaper than FirstEnergy's native generation, by about $0.01 per kWh, which is substantial discount (well over 10%).

I'm looking at solar at some point - maybe next summer.
We have too many trees for solar to pay so we buy most of our electricity from a nearby community solar farm (on an old landfill site). The rest of ours is regional wind. It's great to know my BEV driving is emission free.
 



 









Advertisement


Top