HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors?

Shayne

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Threads
18
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
2,527
Location
Northern Ontario Canada
Vehicles
2021 MME4x Prem
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Indeed, the HVB feeds the DC/DC. The main is partially on: only the left Main Contactor+ needs to be on, while the right one can be off.
Think you have it? He notes it is the black box contact (TE 2203997-1) that is the negative contact running HVAC from one lead and DC/DC or AC Charging in reverse on another all on the same connector but 2 50 amp fuses. When you are charging at home or it comes on to maintain the 12v the inverters are not powered. Do you think the pre-charge does not come on in this sequence because no capacitors? Just the positive main by itself shuts? Sequence Neg black box ===> Main positive

This is the power off maintenance end of it needs to wake up and do it. This is where the 12V can die sitting in a parking lot which have been noted here a number of times. He notes the DC/DC acts like a PC's power supply with a rechargeable 12V cmos battery in his first vid. But you need power to run a power supply which will not happen if the positive contact is stuck open.

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? DC to DC
Sponsored

 
OP
OP
RobbertPatrison

RobbertPatrison

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2022
Threads
12
Messages
179
Reaction score
452
Location
Silicon Valley, California
Vehicles
Ice White Mustang Mach-E
Country flag
Think you have it? He notes it is the black box contact (TE 2203997-1) that is the negative contact running HVAC from one lead and DC/DC or AC Charging in reverse on another all on the same connector but 2 50 amp fuses. When you are charging at home or it comes on to maintain the 12v the inverters are not powered. Do you think the pre-charge does not come on in this sequence because no capacitors? Just the positive main by itself shuts? Sequence Neg black box ===> Main positive

This is the power off maintenance end of it needs to wake up and do it. This is where the 12V can die sitting in a parking lot which have been noted here a number of times. He notes the DC/DC acts like a PC's power supply with a rechargeable 12V cmos battery in his first vid. But you need power to run a power supply which will not happen if the positive contact is stuck open.

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? DC to DC
Indeed: If the positive Main contactor is stuck open the car will be bricked, and unable to recharge the 12V. This will be a pain because without 12V power the doors won’t open, nor will the frunk.

With the negative main contactor open it will be able to replenish the 12V battery, but the car cannot drive.
With any of these main contactors welded closed the MME should be able to drive. But for safety the power should be reduced.
 

Shayne

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Threads
18
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
2,527
Location
Northern Ontario Canada
Vehicles
2021 MME4x Prem
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Indeed: If the positive Main contactor is stuck open the car will be bricked, and unable to recharge the 12V. This will be a pain because without 12V power the doors won’t open, nor will the frunk.

With the negative main contactor open it will be able to replenish the 12V battery, but the car cannot drive.
With any of these main contactors welded closed the MME should be able to drive. But for safety the power should be reduced.
Positive stuck open. It will operate for a good long time if the 12V is charged when it happens. It does run off the 12V the doors open the car powers on but with multiple errors and will not go in gear (frunk is manual once in). Of course it is like a dead alternator and the head lights will go dimmer and dimmer until you are completely dead.
 

Mach-Lee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Lee
Joined
Jul 16, 2021
Threads
207
Messages
7,875
Reaction score
15,823
Location
Wisconsin
Vehicles
2022 Mach-E Premium AWD
Occupation
Sci/Eng
Country flag
Indeed: If the positive Main contactor is stuck open the car will be bricked, and unable to recharge the 12V. This will be a pain because without 12V power the doors won’t open, nor will the frunk.

With the negative main contactor open it will be able to replenish the 12V battery, but the car cannot drive.
With any of these main contactors welded closed the MME should be able to drive. But for safety the power should be reduced.
If the BECM detects a stuck contactor it shuts them all down for safety.
 

SnBGC

Well-Known Member
First Name
Greg
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Threads
46
Messages
5,957
Reaction score
9,754
Location
Phoenix
Vehicles
2021 Mach-E FE, 2021 Wrangler 4xe High Altitude
Occupation
Manager
Country flag
If the BECM detects a stuck contactor it shuts them all down for safety.
Normally yes. But doesn't the recall software now allow an operation mode with limited power? (Assuming stuck closed)
 


Shayne

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Threads
18
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
2,527
Location
Northern Ontario Canada
Vehicles
2021 MME4x Prem
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
If the BECM detects a stuck contactor it shuts them all down for safety.
Is this new with the recall? Was not the case a few times for me. First time over the course of a day waiting for a tow tried it a few times. Near the end the doors where complaining about opening but it worked for a while. The other times no problems accessing the frunk from inside and connecting a 12V charger. What is the safety issue about stuck open? It recovers and drives fine after.
 

SnBGC

Well-Known Member
First Name
Greg
Joined
Apr 20, 2020
Threads
46
Messages
5,957
Reaction score
9,754
Location
Phoenix
Vehicles
2021 Mach-E FE, 2021 Wrangler 4xe High Altitude
Occupation
Manager
Country flag
TLDR: Probably not

Longer version:
Thanks to John Kelly's excellent video we can lift the mystery of the operation of the High Voltage Junction Box (HVJB) in the MME. We can also figure out the likely problem that triggered the recall for the contactor. How? Buckle up and let's get technical!

What is in the HVJB?
Here is the full schematic that I reverse-engineered from this and several other sources:
Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? DC to DC


The main task of the HVJB is to distribute the high voltage battery energy and maximize safety. It contains the following major parts:
  • Main Contactor+ which connects the positive battery terminal. All current flows through this contactor.
  • A Pre-charge contactor + resistor to prevent sparks during startup. Since Main Contactor+ is the last one to close there will be 380Volt across the 2 pins. The pre-charge contactor closes first, charging the terminal slowly through a 24 Ohm resistor. After the voltage is equalized Main Contactor+ can be closed spark-free. Without the precharge circuit, a huge inrush current would flow. The high current and sparks could potentially weld the contacts, or damage the contacts. All EVs apply this trick.
  • Main Contactor- connecting the negative battery terminal. This switches both motors and the HVAC parts.
  • A 630A Rear motor + DCFC fuse. This supplies either the powerful rear motor or the negative terminal of the DCFC port.
  • A smaller Front Motor Fuse.
  • A Cabin HVAC Fuse that protects both the air conditioner compressor and the electric PTC heater. Both these parts heat or cool the cabin as well as the battery. See my earlier post here for details on how that is plumbed.
  • A charger contactor with a charger fuse that connects to both the onboard 240VAC->380VDCcharger and the 380DC->12DC charger. This is switched separately, allowing for L2 charging without powering up both motor inverters. More on that later.
  • Two beefy DCFC contactors isolate the high voltage pins of the charge ports. They are the same type as the Main Contactors.
What is the problem?
The subject of the recall is a malfunction of one of the 4 large contractors. According to Ford: "Direct Current (“DC”) fast charging and repeated wide open pedal events can cause the high voltage battery main contactors to overheat. This overheating may lead to arcing and deformation of the electrical contact surfaces, which can result in an electric relay switch remaining open or a relay switch that welds close from heat. An overheated relay switch that opens while driving can result in a loss of motive power, which can increase the risk of an accident."

What does the contactor look like?
A contactor (AKA a relay) is just an electrically controlled switch. When a 12V low voltage is applied to the primary input, the main contacts close which can conduct a very large current. Cars contain dozens of smaller contactors. The ones that switch the high voltage battery need to be particularly strong. The 4 large jampot-shaped contactors in the HVJB are made in Mexico by TE. This is the datasheet:
Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? DC to DC


Notice that the maximum rated continuous current is 500Amps . We'll come back to that later.

How does the HVJB operate during normal driving?
Before entering the car all HVJB contactors are open (that is, not conducting). The MME is powered by the 12V battery only. When you press the start button in the MME the following sequence of events will likely commanded by the computer:
  1. The Main Contactor- (right side) closes. No current can flow yet because Main Contactor+ on the left is still open. The computer commands the inverters, compressor, and heater to be off.
  2. The computer verifies the voltages to check whether Main Contactor- is indeed closed (0 V across) and Main Contactor+ is open (~380V across). It also verifies that DCFC contactors are indeed open (and not weld shut).
  3. The pre-charge contactor closes to charge the left bus up to 380V.
  4. The computer verifies that the voltage on the left bus is high (~380V).
  5. After that Main Contactor+ closes.
  6. The pre-charge contactor opens, as its job is done.
  7. The computer verifies that the voltage on the left bus remains high (~380V) to verify that the contactor is closed. Likely it briefly commands a little load on the bus to check whether voltages remain stable. If not, this could be a contactor issue and it will throw an error.
  8. The front and rear motor inverters probably run a self-check.
  9. If all is OK, we are ready to drive!
After this, the HVJB will be switched like this, with both main contactors conducting:

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? DC to DC


How much current flows while driving?
Normal steady driving commands about 25kW. This means that a current of (25,000/380=) 66Amps through the two contactors. Maximum regenerative braking is about 70kW, resulting in a reverse current flow of about 185Amps. During pedal-to-the-metal acceleration the peak current through the contactors will be ~900Amps in the GT. In the dual-motor MME it will be about 690A peak.

How does the HVJB operate during DC Fast Charging?
The likely chain of events is as follows after the car is plugged into DCFC:
  1. The Main Contactor - (right side) closes. No current flows yet because Main Contactor+ on the left is still open. The computer commands the inverters, compressor, and heater to be off.
  2. The computer verifies the voltages to check whether Main Contactor- is indeed closed (0 V across) and Main Contactor+ is open (~380V across). It also verifies that DCFC contactors are indeed open (and not weld shut). It will error out if that is not the case. and the car needs to be towed.
  3. Both DCFC contactors close.
  4. The computer verifies the proper voltages, verifying that the contactors are indeed closed and that the DCFC charger does not deliver power.
  5. The pre-charge contactor closes to charge the left bus up to 380V.
  6. The computer verifies that the voltage on the left bus is high (~380V). If not, the car needs to be towed.
  7. Main Contactor+ closes.
  8. The pre-charge contactor opens
  9. The computer verifies that the voltage on the left bus remains high (~380V).
  10. The computer commands the right amount of charge voltage and current from the DCFC charger. It constantly verifies that the voltages are as expected.
After that, the HVJB will be switched like this:

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? DC to DC

The DCFC charge current flows through all 4 contactors. If needed, the AC compressor is run to cool the battery, or the PTC heater is run to (pre-) heat the battery.
The battery cooling is needed because of the internal losses in the battery. The parasitic resistance of the battery can be calculated from the voltage drop under load. When flooring the pedal I see a from 380V to 350V with a current of 250A. So the internal resistance is (30/350=0.09Ohm). That is approx. 2kW of heat in the battery during charging that needs to be sucked out.

Do the contactors get hot?
It seems so! The contactor is rated for 500A continuous and 1000A for 1 minute at a hot 85C. Hence the limitations in the GT. According to the datasheet, the internal resistance of the contact is (0.1V/200A =) 0.0005 Ohm maximum. That seems tiny, but at the rated 500A continuous current that would generate (500*500*0.0005=) 125Watt of heat. During DCFC charging at 150kW the current will be about 400A, so the 4 contactors will generate up to 80Watts of heat each. That is pushing it, as all that heat will need to go somewhere. On top is that the primary coil in the contactor also gets quite warm: 650mA minimum hold current at 12V is another 8 Watts of heat.

The 80 Watt heat is not insignificant: it will get as hot as an incandescent light bulb. It does not look like there is any dedicated cooling in the plastic HVJB assembly. The only way it is cooled is indirectly from the battery pack behind it. Hopefully, the actual contact resistance is lower than that.

So it is possible that during DCFC and/or frequent heavy accelerations the contactors get so hot that they break down or age prematurely. At 85C (hot coffee) the rating is 1000W for 1 minute. But given the likely poor heat conductivity, 80W continuous heat could make the contactor much hotter than 85C. So it could get out-of-spec. Most contactors will survive some abuse, but some unlucky ones will melt plastic and break open or weld themselves shut.

What could a software fix do to prevent the contactors from blowing open or welding shut?
There is a tiny possibility that a bug in the software causes the pre-charging contactor to open too late (or not at all). That would degrade Main Contactor+ quickly. The fix for that would be simple. This scenario is quite unlikely given the information we have from the recall.

The software could reduce the system current when the contactors are hot. This inevitably means some performance degradation or longer charge times. The problem is that there is no temperature sensor in the HVJB or anywhere near the contactors. Ford's software would have to guess the heat based on the average current and the battery temperature. I don't think that can be done accurately without being conservative, causing a noticeable performance degradation.

The software might attempt to detect whether a contactor is about to go bad. The problem with that the voltage drop of a loaded contactor is small (<0.1V) compared to the voltage drop of the battery under load (~30V). The voltages on the battery side of the Main Contactors likely cannot be measured accurately enough to detect contact degradation. With any increase of resistance due to a dirty contact, the contactor will get much hotter very quickly due to the high currents. It will blow or weld shut very rapidly. So, I don't think this is feasible.

I could be missing something, but I don't see a way that a software fix can avoid the hardware problem of overheating without some noticeable degradation of the specs.

What could the software fix do?
It does not seem likely that the OTA software fix prevents the problem from occurring. So it probably just mitigates the problem. Let's analyze what could be done:
  • Case 1: One of the Main Contactors is stuck open. No current can flow so the car will be bricked. No way around that.
  • Case 2: One of the Main Contactors welded itself shut. This is detected in the startup sequence. Rather than bricking, the MME could be put in a limp-home mode to significantly reduce contactor current. That is likely what Ford's fix does. Since the other Main Contactor can still open there should be no significant safety risk.
  • Case 3: One of the Main Contactors opened itself while driving due to overheating, or some discontinuity is detected while driving. This will result in a 'stop safely now' event. Rather than bricking the car in the middle of the road, the software could attempt to restart after a brief cool-down period l. The it can switch to the reduced power limp-home mode. This is likely what happens.
  • Case 4: One of DCFC contactors is open. In that case, DCFC is INOP, but the car should otherwise operate normally.
  • Case 5: One of the DCFC contactors is welded itself shut. This is a slight safety issue but should not have to result in the car going into limp-home mode.
What about a hardware fix?
Any hardware fix would be very expensive for Ford because removing and opening the battery is significant labor and requires skilled people. It would probably run at $3K-$5K per vehicle. I suspect that Ford is monitoring the statistics. They decided that the problem is still rare enough to fix a HVJB on a case-by-case basis. There is no significant safety risk, especially after the software fix.

A permanent solution would be a complete re-design of the HVJB with better cooling and temperature monitoring.
Ford could also replace just the contactors in the HVJB with a better version. This is what the repair seems to do. I suspect that significantly better contactors in the same form factor are not available. Therefore this does not guarantee the problem from re-occurring. It does not seem to be a real manufacturing defect, but rather a structural issue in the design of the HVJB.

How does the MME operate with AC L2 charging?
Both the DC-DC and AC-DC chargers are on a separate (lower-power) contactor. This allows the 12V battery to be re-charged without switching on the entire car. This saves energy because the motor inverters will be off. L2 AC charging is also possible without switching on the entire car:

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? DC to DC

In that case, only the Main Connector+ and the charger connector need to close. The cooling of the DC-DC converter and the Charger runs entirely of the 12V battery so it does not need HV to be active.

As soon as the battery needs to be heated or cooled the rest of the circuit needs to wake up. In moderate temperatures that is not needed because L2 charging produces little heat.

Hope this helps!
Disclaimer: The above is my speculation based on my research. It might be inaccurate or contain errors.

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? DC to DC
When you are calculating the heat load under power, regen or DCFC....isn't most of the heat load running throught the positive side and much less (if any) running through the negative side?

Or asked another way.....do the positive and negative contactors share the heat load equally?
 

Mach-Lee

Well-Known Member
First Name
Lee
Joined
Jul 16, 2021
Threads
207
Messages
7,875
Reaction score
15,823
Location
Wisconsin
Vehicles
2022 Mach-E Premium AWD
Occupation
Sci/Eng
Country flag
Normally yes. But doesn't the recall software now allow an operation mode with limited power? (Assuming stuck closed)
The recall software is smarter and detects a problem before it gets stuck, triggering reduced power. If it still gets stuck, the recall software will shut down everything as before with a SSN fault.

The goal of the recall software is to prevent the contacts from getting completely stuck.

Is this new with the recall? Was not the case a few times for me. First time over the course of a day waiting for a tow tried it a few times. Near the end the doors where complaining about opening but it worked for a while. The other times no problems accessing the frunk from inside and connecting a 12V charger. What is the safety issue about stuck open? It recovers and drives fine after.
No, new and old software handle a stuck contactor identically (SSN error).

When you are calculating the heat load under power, regen or DCFC....isn't most of the heat load running throught the positive side and much less (if any) running through the negative side?

Or asked another way.....do the positive and negative contactors share the heat load equally?
Equal current flows through both + and - contactors while charging. So they get heated equally.
 

Mach-e4x

Well-Known Member
First Name
Steve
Joined
Sep 2, 2021
Threads
4
Messages
156
Reaction score
104
Location
Oneonta, NY USA
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach-e 4x, 2016 Mazda CX5
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Professor John D. Kelly at WSU
See the contactors of a 2021 Ford Mustang Mach E GT high voltage battery. See the removal procedure and a functional demonstration of the contactors.
This is a great video from WeberAuto -
 
OP
OP
RobbertPatrison

RobbertPatrison

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2022
Threads
12
Messages
179
Reaction score
452
Location
Silicon Valley, California
Vehicles
Ice White Mustang Mach-E
Country flag
When you are calculating the heat load under power, regen or DCFC....isn't most of the heat load running throught the positive side and much less (if any) running through the negative side?

Or asked another way.....do the positive and negative contactors share the heat load equally?
While DCFC charging the 4 contactors are a series (“daisy chain”) connection. That means that the current though each of them is the same. The heat generated is a function of the current and the internal resistance. It is not dependent on the location in the chain. So all contactors heat up the same way.

Actually: the current through the left Main Contactor+ could be a little larger when the 12V DC/DC converter is charging the battery. But that is likely insignificant.

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? 1659898152306
 
Last edited:

voxel

Well-Known Member
First Name
Nelson
Joined
Sep 6, 2021
Threads
22
Messages
1,842
Reaction score
1,683
Location
Altamonte Springs, FL
Vehicles
22 Mach-E 4X, 23 GC Limited
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
The battery cooling is needed because of the internal losses in the battery. The parasitic resistance of the battery can be calculated from the voltage drop under load. When flooring the pedal I see a from 380V to 350V with a current of 250A. So the internal resistance is (30/350=0.09Ohm). That is approx. 2kW of heat in the battery during charging that needs to be sucked out.
Somebody here measured the battery IR to be 33-35 mOhms back in the fall or late summer. @phidauex

I don't know at what battery temp or SoC though.

I do know the Ioniq 5 and EV6 have very low IRs in comparison because voltage drop was 5% (800V system) when at full throttle (250 kW - approx 350A) compared to the 10% or greater on Teslas and Mach-Es.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/battery-thermal-management.10813/page-3#post-271060
 

Shayne

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Threads
18
Messages
3,382
Reaction score
2,527
Location
Northern Ontario Canada
Vehicles
2021 MME4x Prem
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
HVAC comes off the black box neg contact similar to the dc to dc and ac charger. Need to flip it up top or the alternator down. (in blue). Still wonder if the pre-charge + contact closes before the main + for these 50 amp circuits. Is it for the inverter capacitors as was explained or is always used?

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? accessory
 

Jimrpa

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jim
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Threads
230
Messages
7,095
Reaction score
9,444
Location
Wayne, PA
Vehicles
2021 Infinite Blue Premium Mustang Mach E ER AWD
Occupation
Retied (formerly tried to herd highly technical, independent cats)
Country flag
TLDR: Probably not

Longer version:
Thanks to John Kelly's excellent video we can lift the mystery of the operation of the High Voltage Junction Box (HVJB) in the MME. We can also figure out the likely problem that triggered the recall for the contactor. How? Buckle up and let's get technical!

What is in the HVJB?
Here is the full schematic that I reverse-engineered from this and several other sources:
Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? accessory


The main task of the HVJB is to distribute the high voltage battery energy and maximize safety. It contains the following major parts:
  • Main Contactor+ which connects the positive battery terminal. All current flows through this contactor.
  • A Pre-charge contactor + resistor to prevent sparks during startup. Since Main Contactor+ is the last one to close there will be 380Volt across the 2 pins. The pre-charge contactor closes first, charging the terminal slowly through a 24 Ohm resistor. After the voltage is equalized Main Contactor+ can be closed spark-free. Without the precharge circuit, a huge inrush current would flow. The high current and sparks could potentially weld the contacts, or damage the contacts. All EVs apply this trick.
  • Main Contactor- connecting the negative battery terminal. This switches both motors and the HVAC parts.
  • A 630A Rear motor + DCFC fuse. This supplies either the powerful rear motor or the negative terminal of the DCFC port.
  • A smaller Front Motor Fuse.
  • A Cabin HVAC Fuse that protects both the air conditioner compressor and the electric PTC heater. Both these parts heat or cool the cabin as well as the battery. See my earlier post here for details on how that is plumbed.
  • A charger contactor with a charger fuse that connects to both the onboard 240VAC->380VDCcharger and the 380DC->12DC charger. This is switched separately, allowing for L2 charging without powering up both motor inverters. More on that later.
  • Two beefy DCFC contactors isolate the high voltage pins of the charge ports. They are the same type as the Main Contactors.
What is the problem?
The subject of the recall is a malfunction of one of the 4 large contractors. According to Ford: "Direct Current (“DC”) fast charging and repeated wide open pedal events can cause the high voltage battery main contactors to overheat. This overheating may lead to arcing and deformation of the electrical contact surfaces, which can result in an electric relay switch remaining open or a relay switch that welds close from heat. An overheated relay switch that opens while driving can result in a loss of motive power, which can increase the risk of an accident."

What does the contactor look like?
A contactor (AKA a relay) is just an electrically controlled switch. When a 12V low voltage is applied to the primary input, the main contacts close which can conduct a very large current. Cars contain dozens of smaller contactors. The ones that switch the high voltage battery need to be particularly strong. The 4 large jampot-shaped contactors in the HVJB are made in Mexico by TE. This is the datasheet:
Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? accessory


Notice that the maximum rated continuous current is 500Amps . We'll come back to that later.

How does the HVJB operate during normal driving?
Before entering the car all HVJB contactors are open (that is, not conducting). The MME is powered by the 12V battery only. When you press the start button in the MME the following sequence of events will likely commanded by the computer:
  1. The Main Contactor- (right side) closes. No current can flow yet because Main Contactor+ on the left is still open. The computer commands the inverters, compressor, and heater to be off.
  2. The computer verifies the voltages to check whether Main Contactor- is indeed closed (0 V across) and Main Contactor+ is open (~380V across). It also verifies that DCFC contactors are indeed open (and not weld shut).
  3. The pre-charge contactor closes to charge the left bus up to 380V.
  4. The computer verifies that the voltage on the left bus is high (~380V).
  5. After that Main Contactor+ closes.
  6. The pre-charge contactor opens, as its job is done.
  7. The computer verifies that the voltage on the left bus remains high (~380V) to verify that the contactor is closed. Likely it briefly commands a little load on the bus to check whether voltages remain stable. If not, this could be a contactor issue and it will throw an error.
  8. The front and rear motor inverters probably run a self-check.
  9. If all is OK, we are ready to drive!
After this, the HVJB will be switched like this, with both main contactors conducting:

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? accessory


How much current flows while driving?
Normal steady driving commands about 25kW. This means that a current of (25,000/380=) 66Amps through the two contactors. Maximum regenerative braking is about 70kW, resulting in a reverse current flow of about 185Amps. During pedal-to-the-metal acceleration the peak current through the contactors will be ~900Amps in the GT. In the dual-motor MME it will be about 690A peak.

How does the HVJB operate during DC Fast Charging?
The likely chain of events is as follows after the car is plugged into DCFC:
  1. The Main Contactor - (right side) closes. No current flows yet because Main Contactor+ on the left is still open. The computer commands the inverters, compressor, and heater to be off.
  2. The computer verifies the voltages to check whether Main Contactor- is indeed closed (0 V across) and Main Contactor+ is open (~380V across). It also verifies that DCFC contactors are indeed open (and not weld shut). It will error out if that is not the case. and the car needs to be towed.
  3. Both DCFC contactors close.
  4. The computer verifies the proper voltages, verifying that the contactors are indeed closed and that the DCFC charger does not deliver power.
  5. The pre-charge contactor closes to charge the left bus up to 380V.
  6. The computer verifies that the voltage on the left bus is high (~380V). If not, the car needs to be towed.
  7. Main Contactor+ closes.
  8. The pre-charge contactor opens
  9. The computer verifies that the voltage on the left bus remains high (~380V).
  10. The computer commands the right amount of charge voltage and current from the DCFC charger. It constantly verifies that the voltages are as expected.
After that, the HVJB will be switched like this:

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? accessory

The DCFC charge current flows through all 4 contactors. If needed, the AC compressor is run to cool the battery, or the PTC heater is run to (pre-) heat the battery.
The battery cooling is needed because of the internal losses in the battery. The parasitic resistance of the battery can be calculated from the voltage drop under load. When flooring the pedal I see a from 380V to 350V with a current of 250A. So the internal resistance is (30/350=0.09Ohm). That is approx. 2kW of heat in the battery during charging that needs to be sucked out.

Do the contactors get hot?
It seems so! The contactor is rated for 500A continuous and 1000A for 1 minute at a hot 85C. Hence the limitations in the GT. According to the datasheet, the internal resistance of the contact is (0.1V/200A =) 0.0005 Ohm maximum. That seems tiny, but at the rated 500A continuous current that would generate (500*500*0.0005=) 125Watt of heat. During DCFC charging at 150kW the current will be about 400A, so the 4 contactors will generate up to 80Watts of heat each. That is pushing it, as all that heat will need to go somewhere. On top is that the primary coil in the contactor also gets quite warm: 650mA minimum hold current at 12V is another 8 Watts of heat.

The 80 Watt heat is not insignificant: it will get as hot as an incandescent light bulb. It does not look like there is any dedicated cooling in the plastic HVJB assembly. The only way it is cooled is indirectly from the battery pack behind it. Hopefully, the actual contact resistance is lower than that.

So it is possible that during DCFC and/or frequent heavy accelerations the contactors get so hot that they break down or age prematurely. At 85C (hot coffee) the rating is 1000W for 1 minute. But given the likely poor heat conductivity, 80W continuous heat could make the contactor much hotter than 85C. So it could get out-of-spec. Most contactors will survive some abuse, but some unlucky ones will melt plastic and break open or weld themselves shut.

What could a software fix do to prevent the contactors from blowing open or welding shut?
There is a tiny possibility that a bug in the software causes the pre-charging contactor to open too late (or not at all). That would degrade Main Contactor+ quickly. The fix for that would be simple. This scenario is quite unlikely given the information we have from the recall.

The software could reduce the system current when the contactors are hot. This inevitably means some performance degradation or longer charge times. The problem is that there is no temperature sensor in the HVJB or anywhere near the contactors. Ford's software would have to guess the heat based on the average current and the battery temperature. I don't think that can be done accurately without being conservative, causing a noticeable performance degradation.

The software might attempt to detect whether a contactor is about to go bad. The problem with that the voltage drop of a loaded contactor is small (<0.1V) compared to the voltage drop of the battery under load (~30V). The voltages on the battery side of the Main Contactors likely cannot be measured accurately enough to detect contact degradation. With any increase of resistance due to a dirty contact, the contactor will get much hotter very quickly due to the high currents. It will blow or weld shut very rapidly. So, I don't think this is feasible.

I could be missing something, but I don't see a way that a software fix can avoid the hardware problem of overheating without some noticeable degradation of the specs.

What could the software fix do?
It does not seem likely that the OTA software fix prevents the problem from occurring. So it probably just mitigates the problem. Let's analyze what could be done:
  • Case 1: One of the Main Contactors is stuck open. No current can flow so the car will be bricked. No way around that.
  • Case 2: One of the Main Contactors welded itself shut. This is detected in the startup sequence. Rather than bricking, the MME could be put in a limp-home mode to significantly reduce contactor current. That is likely what Ford's fix does. Since the other Main Contactor can still open there should be no significant safety risk.
  • Case 3: One of the Main Contactors opened itself while driving due to overheating, or some discontinuity is detected while driving. This will result in a 'stop safely now' event. Rather than bricking the car in the middle of the road, the software could attempt to restart after a brief cool-down period l. The it can switch to the reduced power limp-home mode. This is likely what happens.
  • Case 4: One of DCFC contactors is open. In that case, DCFC is INOP, but the car should otherwise operate normally.
  • Case 5: One of the DCFC contactors is welded itself shut. This is a slight safety issue but should not have to result in the car going into limp-home mode.
What about a hardware fix?
Any hardware fix would be very expensive for Ford because removing and opening the battery is significant labor and requires skilled people. It would probably run at $3K-$5K per vehicle. I suspect that Ford is monitoring the statistics. They decided that the problem is still rare enough to fix a HVJB on a case-by-case basis. There is no significant safety risk, especially after the software fix.

A permanent solution would be a complete re-design of the HVJB with better cooling and temperature monitoring.
Ford could also replace just the contactors in the HVJB with a better version. This is what the repair seems to do. I suspect that significantly better contactors in the same form factor are not available. Therefore this does not guarantee the problem from re-occurring. It does not seem to be a real manufacturing defect, but rather a structural issue in the design of the HVJB.

How does the MME operate with AC L2 charging?
Both the DC-DC and AC-DC chargers are on a separate (lower-power) contactor. This allows the 12V battery to be re-charged without switching on the entire car. This saves energy because the motor inverters will be off. L2 AC charging is also possible without switching on the entire car:

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? accessory

In that case, only the Main Connector+ and the charger connector need to close. The cooling of the DC-DC converter and the Charger runs entirely of the 12V battery so it does not need HV to be active.

As soon as the battery needs to be heated or cooled the rest of the circuit needs to wake up. In moderate temperatures that is not needed because L2 charging produces little heat.

Hope this helps!
Disclaimer: The above is my speculation based on my research. It might be inaccurate or contain errors.

Ford Mustang Mach-E HVJB Deep Dive: Is there any way that software fixes the problem of overheating contactors? accessory
Thank you so much for this thorough explanation with pictures - incredibly helpful. I will have questions coming after I have time to digest it (work is being annoying right now)
 

AZBill

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
May 26, 2021
Threads
12
Messages
1,497
Reaction score
1,766
Location
Arizona
Vehicles
Rivian R1T, Hummer EV SUT, MME CA Route 1
Occupation
Engineer
Country flag
If i understand correctly the smaller battery cars are less likely vulnerable?
Current is dependent on mostly the motor configuration, not the battery configuration.

RWD, least amount of current
AWD, more current
GT, most current because front motor is more HP
Sponsored

 
 




Top