I Think I’ve Figured Out PaaK

SteveJo

Well-Known Member
First Name
Steve
Joined
Apr 17, 2020
Messages
109
Reaction score
137
Location
Chadds Ford, PA, USA
Vehicles
2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid, 2021 MME Prem. RWD w/X
Country flag
From my personal experience and research...
It's unlikely PaaK would require any network services to function. Latency would be a significant concern, and what about trips to areas w/o cellular. Ford would have to notate that. Wouldn't they?
The fob does not require a network. Car and fob have their own little dedicated sender/receiver.
Paak uses BLE to minimize latency, power conservation, etc. It seems to me that the MME often "goes to sleep" regarding BLE PaaK reception. It needs to be awake and "listening" for the Paak all the time (like the fob receiver is), but it nods-off periodically. The cause? Probably boredom. 🤷‍♂️





Advertisement

 

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
6,933
Reaction score
13,292
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
Mach-E FE reserved, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Tacoma
Country flag
From my personal experience and research...
It's unlikely PaaK would require any network services to function. Latency would be a significant concern, and what about trips to areas w/o cellular. Ford would have to notate that. Wouldn't they?
The fob does not require a network. Car and fob have their own little dedicated sender/receiver.
Paak uses BLE to minimize latency, power conservation, etc. It seems to me that the MME often "goes to sleep" regarding BLE PaaK reception. It needs to be awake and "listening" for the Paak all the time (like the fob receiver is), but it nods-off periodically. The cause? Probably boredom. 🤷‍♂️
I agree with you but it does appear the Mach E application of PaaK does require network services.
 

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
6,933
Reaction score
13,292
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
Mach-E FE reserved, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Tacoma
Country flag
Remember, the remote lock/unlock/start from FordPass all work through the cloud. No internet connectivity (wireless) then none of those functions.
hete’s my own GUESS on how PaaK might work:

Phone and car get in Bluetooth range of each other and have been previously paired:
They exchange some kind of one-time token identifying themselves (over Bluetooth)
They then separately call back to the Ford mothership (via the internet) and ask if that token is valid and is the key or car that they’re associated with.
Once both the phone and the car have heard back that the token they have for the other one is valid, then the car will let the doors open.
Then, before allowing the vehicle to start, both the phone and the car go through another token exchange and validation with the Ford mothership. Once that second token exchange and validation is complete, then the car will allow it to be started.
again, this is all just my speculation. I haven’t looked at any traffic Bluetooth or network from the phone or the car, nor do I have any insight into how any of the PaaK is implemented. I’m speculating given the delays in the UI and the dependencies on the Ford mothership for other FordPass and car functions.
I’d love it if someone who knows something about networking actually looked at the traffic going on when PaaK is in use.
It's a nice guess but not supported by observations. While network connectivity is required, people have been able to use old phones not connected to cellular or wifi internet to operate PaaK. It appears only the car requires connection to the mothership via the internet.
 

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
6,933
Reaction score
13,292
Location
Maryland
Vehicles
Mach-E FE reserved, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Tacoma
Country flag
It does not require cellular phone data.

I've entered and started the vehicle with just my phone, with mobile data completely disabled. It worked great.
That included no wifi connectivity on the phone, right? How long was the phone completely offline? I expect constant connectivity isn't needed but periodic token refresh is.
 

v8318cid

Member
First Name
Robert
Joined
Mar 1, 2021
Messages
23
Reaction score
16
Location
SC
Vehicles
20 GMC Sierra HD, 21 MMe Prm. 4x , 19 Nissan Leaf
Occupation
Information Tech
Country flag
The dealer I bought mine from wouldn't let me leave until I configured PaaK, despite telling them multiple times that I probably wouldn't be using it. Strangely insistent about it. Yes, I do occasionally use it, but I've probably used the door/backup passcodes more. That and take notice of how "chatty" the Ford Pass app is. I glanced at the background activity on my phone one day and found that the FP app, if open, was talking to the car almost non-stop overnight. Talk about a battery drain... =)
 

highland58

Well-Known Member
First Name
Dave
Joined
Jan 6, 2020
Messages
607
Reaction score
721
Location
Seattle area
Vehicles
2021 Rapid Red FE and 2016 Nissan LEAF
Occupation
IT
Country flag
I'm trying to understand the need to lock a car that is parked in the garage. Is the garage door not locked?
 

BMT1071

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mike
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
201
Reaction score
111
Location
Glendale, AZ
Vehicles
17 Chevy Malibu, 21 Infiniti QX50, 21 MME On order
Occupation
Regional Service Manager
Country flag
I'm trying to understand the need to lock a car that is parked in the garage. Is the garage door not locked?
Most people are looking for the opposite. They want the MME to use location services and not auto lock when it's in the garage.
 

BradCA

Active Member
First Name
Brad
Joined
Mar 29, 2021
Messages
36
Reaction score
39
Location
San Diego, CA
Vehicles
Mustang Mach-E, Lexus CT200h
Country flag
So if you have some creeper following you in a parking lot back to your car, good luck getting in and locking the doors behind you quickly. Then hope you sure don't have to type in your backup code to be able to drive away.

I have disabled paak as it seems like a huge step backwards in the usability of a modern car.
Don't know about that, but it's definitely a solution in search of a problem. I was just thinking, that if Ford distributed 2 fobs, would anyone say: damn it, I wish I could use my phone as a key?

Whatever effort went into writing all the code for PAAK would have been better spent improving FordPass app.
I think they had to do it because it’s a popular feature that Tesla has that this car otherwise would not have. Anyone who test drove a Tesla would probably wonder why this feature is absent from the MME. I know when I decided to buy this vehicle, I had a mental checklist of how it compared to the Model 3 and Model Y. The bugs will get squashed I’m sure through over the air updates.

I use PAAK and it’s definitely frustrating. It usually unlocks the doors for me and that’s about it. I get the “no key detected“ message almost every single time. It’s so tempting to just go buy another fob. Which is one area where Ford has Tesla beat: they don’t even give you a fob. You have to buy one. Or use your phone or a credit card to open the door.
 

BMT1071

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mike
Joined
Mar 21, 2021
Messages
201
Reaction score
111
Location
Glendale, AZ
Vehicles
17 Chevy Malibu, 21 Infiniti QX50, 21 MME On order
Occupation
Regional Service Manager
Country flag
The dealer I bought mine from wouldn't let me leave until I configured PaaK, despite telling them multiple times that I probably wouldn't be using it. Strangely insistent about it. Yes, I do occasionally use it, but I've probably used the door/backup passcodes more. That and take notice of how "chatty" the Ford Pass app is. I glanced at the background activity on my phone one day and found that the FP app, if open, was talking to the car almost non-stop overnight. Talk about a battery drain... =)
Activating PaaK may be a metric that the dealer is graded on by Ford.
 

Cnote

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2020
Messages
80
Reaction score
125
Location
Texas
Vehicles
2014 Corvette Stingray, 2021 Mach E premium SR RWD
Country flag
I don't particularly understand why that is annoying. If I walk into the garage with my phone, the welcome lights and my friendly pony lights appear. I kind of like it and it does minimal harm (very little power used for my Mach-E to welcome me to my garage). Some have stated that the car then honks when you walk away but that has not been my experience unless I push the unlock button.
For me the welcome lights don't appear with my phone (only the fob) but since I made sure the app was never slept/optimized by Android paak works consistently. I am able to walk up to the car, press the button and the door opens immediately. I don't see the "no key detected" message any longer, and I haven't noticed any battery drain from the fordpass app. Not sure why the welcoming lights don't work for paak, but so far so good.
 

MurphyDog

Well-Known Member
First Name
Rob
Joined
Jun 26, 2020
Messages
118
Reaction score
299
Location
San Jose, CA
Vehicles
Mach-E Premium
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
I think they had to do it because it’s a popular feature that Tesla has that this car otherwise would not have. Anyone who test drove a Tesla would probably wonder why this feature is absent from the MME. I know when I decided to buy this vehicle, I had a mental checklist of how it compared to the Model 3 and Model Y. The bugs will get squashed I’m sure through over the air updates.

I use PAAK and it’s definitely frustrating. It usually unlocks the doors for me and that’s about it. I get the “no key detected“ message almost every single time. It’s so tempting to just go buy another fob. Which is one area where Ford has Tesla beat: they don’t even give you a fob. You have to buy one. Or use your phone or a credit card to open the door.
Friends of mine who have both an older Model S and a new Model 3 have had so much issues with paak (on the model 3) that they kept demanding Tesla give them a FOB. It took a while, but Tesla finally caved and gave them a FOB.
 

BradCA

Active Member
First Name
Brad
Joined
Mar 29, 2021
Messages
36
Reaction score
39
Location
San Diego, CA
Vehicles
Mustang Mach-E, Lexus CT200h
Country flag
For me the welcome lights don't appear with my phone (only the fob) but since I made sure the app was never slept/optimized by Android paak works consistently. I am able to walk up to the car, press the button and the door opens immediately. I don't see the "no key detected" message any longer, and I haven't noticed any battery drain from the fordpass app. Not sure why the welcoming lights don't work for paak, but so far so good.
Hmmmmm. Maybe PAAK works better on Android than it does on iOS.
 

BradCA

Active Member
First Name
Brad
Joined
Mar 29, 2021
Messages
36
Reaction score
39
Location
San Diego, CA
Vehicles
Mustang Mach-E, Lexus CT200h
Country flag
Friends of mine who have both an older Model S and a new Model 3 have had so much issues with paak (on the model 3) that they kept demanding Tesla give them a FOB. It took a while, but Tesla finally caved and gave them a FOB.
Good to know that Tesla has these problems as well. I have a couple of friends who have Teslas and they use the credit card method to get into their car. And the B pillar gets scratched up from all the credit card taps.
 

macchiaz-o

Well-Known Member
First Name
Jonathan
Joined
Nov 25, 2019
Messages
3,468
Reaction score
6,953
Location
Valley of the Sun
Vehicles
human driven
Country flag
That included no wifi connectivity on the phone, right? How long was the phone completely offline? I expect constant connectivity isn't needed but periodic token refresh is.
Wifi was enabled but I was away from home and there were no wifi connections.

Mobile data was off for at least 3 minutes before I walked out to the car.

I don't know whether the keys expire and don't want to speculate. But if they did expire in minutes instead of weeks or years or never, I'd be a bit baffled by the technical decisions behind that.
 

Advertisement





 


Advertisement
Top