Input, based on experience, on proposed solutions

[RickMachE]

Looking at possible Mach-E charging solutions, have no 220 availability currently. Will pick one, 110 charging is not of interest.

Have 200 amp service, with all breakers slots filled. At least one electrician has said that's not a problem, can get half-sized breakers. Unknown how much of the 200 amp service we use. At least one electrician has said that based on what we have in the house, we come no where close to using 80% of it.

Proposed solutions vary - I've got 2 estimates and 2 - 3 more on the way. I know that I can get a 30% tax credit for any work, plus the charger, up to $1,000.

1) Use the existing vehicle charger, installing a plug in the garage. $1,200, $300 higher than their "flat rate" on my utility company's website, awaiting explanation of that.

2) Install a DCC12 EV Energy Management load shedding device. This is designed to read the load on the service, and if it reaches too much cut off the vehicle before a problem exists. Highly unlikely that I will need it today, but future proofs - I can then install two chargers on that same line from #1, in the future, and they will a) talk to each other and balance out charging and b) ensure I don't overload the system. $1,935 (matches up with price of load shedding device over cost of #1) Has anyone utilizes such a device? I can also buy a JuiceBox 48 from this electrician (approved distributor) for the same price as the company (on sale, sold out), which gets me a $500 rebate from my utility. No rebate if I don't buy a JuiceBox or a ChargePoint charger. Figure I can always sell charger with house, or take it with me to future house, stupid to not take rebate.

3) Because I have 320 amps in my meter box, I can have another panel added with 120 amps of service, and that will cover both today's usage plus ANY future usage, even adding Lightning with 80 amp service (100 amp breaker), as long as the Mach-E is dialed down to not exceed 40 amps if Lightning is running. - $3,300 - $4,000. This is from a different electrician who latched onto the future potential even though I said it wasn't near a certainty. He hasn't offered a lower-priced solution.

Interest in experiences that are similar.

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[AZBill]

Not exactly the same situation as yours, but I currently have two garages, one attached and a separate RV garage, and both have 50A plugs in them. The RV garage has a 125A subpanel. I also have two AC/heat-pumps for my house in Arizona, plus electric water heater. I currently charge two EVs at night, after 8pm for lower rates, and the 200A service has no issues. The Mach E can pull 40A and the Bolt 32A.

I am planning on replacing the Bolt with a Hummer EV, and will charge it at 40A. To be honest I think the higher charging levels are not that necessary, currently I probably only charge each vehicle for less than 2 hours each night. I also have a 50A arc welder that I sometimes plug into the 50A plug, so I prefer to have plug in charger, not hardwired.

You can always set the charging times of 2 vehicles to be different in order to loadshare manually, but I don't do that.

 

[benk016]

I was in the same situation as you are in. Twice.

I built this house in 2017, 200amp service. But the electricians that did the initial wiring. completely filled the panel. I didn't really notice that until I got a hot tub and needed to add a circuit for that. So they swapped a few of the 110 breakers with half sized and got the hot tub installed.

Then I got my MME and got my ChargePoint home flex put in. Same thing, swapped a few 110 breakers with half height and added in the 60amp line.

Both times the electricians knew without a doubt I wasn't hitting anywhere near the 200amp max.

Worst case, is you can adjust your EVSE to only output at limited power if you need to.

I also schedule my charging overnight when almost everything is off just so its not charging during the day at the same time the AC is running full blast.

Here is a timeline of my homes energy use from Wednesday. You can see from 12:00am to around 4:00am my car was charging at 48amp. The rest of the day even at highest usage for the rest of the house it was half that. And I work from home so I'm home all day.

 

[Sam2084]

I was in the same situation as you are in. Twice.

I built this house in 2017, 200amp service. But the electricians that did the initial wiring. completely filled the panel. I didn't really notice that until I got a hot tub and needed to add a circuit for that. So they swapped a few of the 110 breakers with half sized and got the hot tub installed.

Then I got my MME and got my ChargePoint home flex put in. Same thing, swapped a few 110 breakers with half height and added in the 60amp line.

Both times the electricians knew without a doubt I wasn't hitting anywhere near the 200amp max.

Worst case, is you can adjust your EVSE to only output at limited power if you need to.

I also schedule my charging overnight when almost everything is off just so its not charging during the day at the same time the AC is running full blast.

Here is a timeline of my homes energy use from Wednesday. You can see from 12:00am to around 4:00am my car was charging at 48amp. The rest of the day even at highest usage for the rest of the house it was half that. And I work from home so I'm home all day.

Shouldn’t 48A charge at 11.5kW? Your picture maxes out at 4. It’s actually a pretty weird graph too since the units should be kW not kWh.

 

[benk016]

Shouldn’t 48A charge at 11.5kW? Your picture maxes out at 4. It’s actually a pretty weird graph too since the units should be kW not kWh.

Each data point on this graph, just shows how much energy was going through my electric meter on the side of the house at that moment in time. 11kw charging does not equal 11kwh.

If I was pulling enough to register 11kwh on that graph, I would be charging from 0-100% in like 2 hours.

It polls every 15 minutes. So, I was using between 3 and 4 Kwh of consumption every 15 minutes. over 1 hour, thats about 12kwh. The times 4kwh was reported were likely when the AC kicked on for the house.

 

[timbop]

Each data point on this graph, just shows how much energy was going through my electric meter on the side of the house at that moment in time. 11kw charging does not equal 11kwh.

If I was pulling enough to register 11kwh on that graph, I would be charging from 0-100% in like 2 hours.

It polls every 15 minutes. So, I was using between 3 and 4 Kwh of consumption every 15 minutes. over 1 hour, thats about 12kwh. The times 4kwh was reported were likely when the AC kicked on for the house.

In a million years I never would have figured that out from that graph. Then again Im a C++ developer... ?

 

[Sam2084]

Each data point on this graph, just shows how much energy was going through my electric meter on the side of the house at that moment in time. 11kw charging does not equal 11kwh.

If I was pulling enough to register 11kwh on that graph, I would be charging from 0-100% in like 2 hours.

It polls every 15 minutes. So, I was using between 3 and 4 Kwh of consumption every 15 minutes. over 1 hour, thats about 12kwh. The times 4kwh was reported were likely when the AC kicked on for the house.

Gotcha energy used during each 15 minute window.

 

[RickMachE]

One of the interesting things, and by that I mean ridiculous things, is the wide variation across estimates. I've had 3 companies do estimates so far, only 1 has actually come to the house (I did provide pictures to all).

1) Since my box is full, one proposes to replace some breakers with 1/2 size breakers to make room, and also utilize a load shedding device.

2) Others, and a relative that is a master electrician, say that 1/2 size breakers are against code and won't pass inspection.

3) One wants to run new service for a new 200 amp panel to provide for "all future EV usage", including the possibility that I buy a Lightning next year (I disclosed that to all of them). Others say that too much is unknown, and the Lightning will have unique needs.

4) The best overall so far seems to be to put in a subpanel since my box is full, move some breakers to it, and feed a 60 amp line to the garage for a JuiceBox 48. If I buy another normal EV, a 2nd JuiceBox can communicate and parse out the charging. If I buy a Lightning, I can either do the same, of if I want the 80amp bi-directional charging, run a whole separate setup.

 

[Maquis]

One of the interesting things, and by that I mean ridiculous things, is the wide variation across estimates. I've had 3 companies do estimates so far, only 1 has actually come to the house (I did provide pictures to all).

1) Since my box is full, one proposes to replace some breakers with 1/2 size breakers to make room, and also utilize a load shedding device.

2) Others, and a relative that is a master electrician, say that 1/2 size breakers are against code and won't pass inspection.

3) One wants to run new service for a new 200 amp panel to provide for "all future EV usage", including the possibility that I buy a Lightning next year (I disclosed that to all of them). Others say that too much is unknown, and the Lightning will have unique needs.

4) The best overall so far seems to be to put in a subpanel since my box is full, move some breakers to it, and feed a 60 amp line to the garage for a JuiceBox 48. If I buy another normal EV, a 2nd JuiceBox can communicate and parse out the charging. If I buy a Lightning, I can either do the same, of if I want the 80amp bi-directional charging, run a whole separate setup.

1) A competent electrician should be able to perform an NEC load calculation (which are conservative by nature) to determine if your 200A panel has the capacity for the additional load.

2) "1/2 size breakers" are actually (likely) tandem breakers. Basically a breaker that fits into a single slot that has two breakers built into it. Whether or not these will meet code depends on the brand of your panel and the availability of listed tandem breakers for that specific panel. Unless you have some local amendments to the NEC that prohibit tandem breakers - I've never heard of that.

3) A second main panel is not a new service. The NEC does not allow multiple services to a dwelling except in very specific exceptions. If you have 2 main panels, the main disconnects for both must be grouped together.

4) A subpanel is probably the best solution, providing that a load calculation shows that your 200A main is sufficient. I'd bet it is.

 

[RickMachE]

Right. No one has shown me any load calculation. They all have a picture of the panel, as well as the labeled breakers, so they COULD have done it, just not shown it. That will be a question for the inspector, I have a call in to him.

Yes, not a "new service". Also not a separate EV meter (I don't need one, but one person pushed it and won't estimate without it).

 

[cjk422]

I was in the same situation as you are in. Twice.

I built this house in 2017, 200amp service. But the electricians that did the initial wiring. completely filled the panel. I didn't really notice that until I got a hot tub and needed to add a circuit for that. So they swapped a few of the 110 breakers with half sized and got the hot tub installed.

Then I got my MME and got my ChargePoint home flex put in. Same thing, swapped a few 110 breakers with half height and added in the 60amp line.

Both times the electricians knew without a doubt I wasn't hitting anywhere near the 200amp max.

Worst case, is you can adjust your EVSE to only output at limited power if you need to.

I also schedule my charging overnight when almost everything is off just so its not charging during the day at the same time the AC is running full blast.

Here is a timeline of my homes energy use from Wednesday. You can see from 12:00am to around 4:00am my car was charging at 48amp. The rest of the day even at highest usage for the rest of the house it was half that. And I work from home so I'm home all day.

What are you using to get this data?

 

[timbop]

Hmm. They wouldn't manufacture and sell 1/2 height breakers if they weren't to code, although I suppose the recent code could prohibit them and some older townships haven't moved to the latest. I know that I had to put some 1/2 sized breakers in before finally upgrading my panel, but that was in the 2005-2008 timeframe. I put them on 15A circuits to free up room for a full-sized 40A A/C breaker.

If you are planning to get the 80A circuit for the lightning because it can power your house, a new service line for it makes no sense - it won't be connected to any of your house's circuits so won't do a damn think in a power failure. I don't know how big your panel box is, but it is unusual for it to be completely full AND for you to be able to add a 60A circuit (48A draw) without exceeding the service breaker. If that is really correct and the load won't exceed it, then the typical solution is a subpanel.

 

[hybrid2bev]

Looking at possible Mach-E charging solutions, have no 220 availability currently. Will pick one, 110 charging is not of interest.

Have 200 amp service, with all breakers slots filled. At least one electrician has said that's not a problem, can get half-sized breakers. Unknown how much of the 200 amp service we use. At least one electrician has said that based on what we have in the house, we come no where close to using 80% of it.

Proposed solutions vary - I've got 2 estimates and 2 - 3 more on the way. I know that I can get a 30% tax credit for any work, plus the charger, up to $1,000.

1) Use the existing vehicle charger, installing a plug in the garage. $1,200, $300 higher than their "flat rate" on my utility company's website, awaiting explanation of that.

2) Install a DCC12 EV Energy Management load shedding device. This is designed to read the load on the service, and if it reaches too much cut off the vehicle before a problem exists. Highly unlikely that I will need it today, but future proofs - I can then install two chargers on that same line from #1, in the future, and they will a) talk to each other and balance out charging and b) ensure I don't overload the system. $1,935 (matches up with price of load shedding device over cost of #1) Has anyone utilizes such a device? I can also buy a JuiceBox 48 from this electrician (approved distributor) for the same price as the company (on sale, sold out), which gets me a $500 rebate from my utility. No rebate if I don't buy a JuiceBox or a ChargePoint charger. Figure I can always sell charger with house, or take it with me to future house, stupid to not take rebate.

3) Because I have 320 amps in my meter box, I can have another panel added with 120 amps of service, and that will cover both today's usage plus ANY future usage, even adding Lightning with 80 amp service (100 amp breaker), as long as the Mach-E is dialed down to not exceed 40 amps if Lightning is running. - $3,300 - $4,000. This is from a different electrician who latched onto the future potential even though I said it wasn't near a certainty. He hasn't offered a lower-priced solution.

Interest in experiences that are similar.

I’ve got 200 amp service too. Because my utility company offers a discount on energy if you go with a time of use program, I had a second meter installed with a separate sub-panel, that is dedicated to the charger on a 240 volt / 50 amp breaker. Cost $1,200 which also included the new 6 gauge wire (50 foot run), 14-50 outlet, charger installment and two new 20 amp outlets run out of the main panel.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/chargepoint-discount.2125/post-68981

 

[benk016]

What are you using to get this data?

Its just in my account view with my city utility account. If you have a smart meter, this data should be available somewhere.

 

[RickMachE]

I’ve got 200 amp service too. Because my utility company offers a discount on energy if you go with a time of use program, I had a second meter installed with a separate sub-panel, that is dedicated to the charger on a 240 volt / 50 amp breaker. Cost $1,200 which also included the new 6 gauge wire (50 foot run), 14-50 outlet, charger installment and two new 20 amp outlets run out of the main panel.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/chargepoint-discount.2125/post-68981

My utility, DTE, offers multiple time of day plans, only one of which requires a separate meter

The meter program is from 11PM to 9AM Mon - Fri, and all day on weekends. It's 11 cents in off-peak, 24 cents in peak.

The also offer a time of day plan that does NOT require a separate meter, i.e. all usage is on the plan, including the EV. It's 12 cents off-peak, and 23 cents peak (June-Oct) or 20 cents (Nov - May). However, off peak hours are 7PM - 11AM and weekends.

Therefore, I'd rather have 16 hours of off-peak vs. 10, and a lower peak rate.

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