Insight into why the Mach-E battery charge strategy is so conservative

[SteelMach]

Don't get it because I doubt the taper is going anywhere for quite some time, if ever.

Unless you have a Taycan, the charge curves always mean that charging more frequently in the low/middle of SOC is always much faster than charging less frequently to above 80%. So personally I don't see this as a big deal. YMMV

I've already paid for it... after a 15 month wait I wasn't going to leave it at the dealer.

I agree it's rare to need to go over 80, but it will happen, and the car should allow that, not tell you you're using it wrong, essentially.

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[kgautam28]

I'm guessing Ford is strictly complying to LG Chem cell charging guidelines, and Hyundai wished it would of. For $900M, everyone could of gotten a 3D printed version of a Kona...

How come tesla is able to charge faster on their lgchem battery

 

[SnBGC]

I would never charge to 100% at home.

I charge to 100% at home every night.
Then I do it again at work. Every time.
No issues observed what-so-ever. Battery health is totally fine. And I am able to check it with an appropriate scan tool and self tests....

Now keep in mind that I pretty much have to charge to 100% every day and sometimes through the day because my car has about 120 miles of range on a 100% S.O.C. and some days I drive about 150 miles for various appointments. I think my average is about 90 miles per day.

When the Mach-E arrives.....I can probably lower the % limit a bit without any concern because the battery capacity in those things is MUCH greater than what I currently have. That being said....if I know I have a long trip coming up or a heavy travel day then I will have absolutely NO concerns at all with charging my car to 100% while using AC L1 or L2 service.

 

[SteelMach]

I charge to 100% at home every night.
Then I do it again at work. Every time.
No issues observed what-so-ever. Battery health is totally fine. And I am able to check it with an appropriate scan tool and self tests....

Now keep in mind that I pretty much have to charge to 100% every day and sometimes through the day because my car has about 120 miles of range on a 100% S.O.C. and some days I drive about 150 miles for various appointments. I think my average is about 90 miles per day.

When the Mach-E arrives.....I can probably lower the % limit a bit without any concern because the battery capacity in those things is MUCH greater than what I currently have. That being said....if I know I have a long trip coming up or a heavy travel day then I will have absolutely NO concerns at all with charging my car to 100% while using AC L1 or L2 service.

80% is my home charge limit. With "300 miles" there's no reason to go above that at home.

It's on road trips where I want to go beyond 80% and to do so with speed.

 

[RonTCat]

How come tesla is able to charge faster on their lgchem battery

Not sure if they use LGChem at all, they are tied in with Panasonic.

As for charging...
- They likely have better data on where that fine line of a battery fire is, based on experience
- Hope you don't look at the battery warranty too closely
- Won't recall for battery non-compliance to gov standards unless absolutely forced to with a government lawsuit
- Something else, maybe really good cathode/anode design

I guess in the end, their risk tolerance is higher.

 

[RonTCat]

I don't understand why Hyundai has to replace the battery packs in all 82,000 cars if LG says its just a logic error in the code. Update the computer.... I guess maybe they're worried about a lower than promised charging rate? Even in that case offer to buy back the cars and re-sell them. WAY less expensive than a $1bn recall...

The damage to the batteries is likely already done. They might have looked at the data, and decided the batteries won't make the warranty life. Might as well bite the bullet now. Who knows.

 

[dbsb3233]

80% is my home charge limit. With "300 miles" there's no reason to go above that at home.

It's on road trips where I want to go beyond 80% and to do so with speed.

It's logical to only charge to 80-90% at home most of the time unless your daily commute is very long. But when embarking on a road trip, that's the time to home-charge to 100% so you have max charge for the first leg of the road trip. Can probably get 150-200 miles out of that first leg (ER battery) at interstate speeds.

After that, yes, DCFC charging on the road is usually only practical below 80%. That's true in nearly all BEVs, as they all slow down quite a bit above 80% (although not as much as the MME currently is). Most people driving BEVs on road trips try to stop frequently enough so that they're living between the 10-80% SOC range of the battery.

That's not always possible, of course. Not every route has good DCFC coverage to be able to do that. When that's the case, a BEV is simply a poor choice for that trip. (Many people just use ICE for that, even renting if they don't have another vehicle).

Your point about the severity of the DCFC drop-off at 80% on the MME is a valid one, as it falls off far more than most. I too hope that improves some (maybe 25-40 kW instead of an L2-like 10-12 kW). But in practice, most people don't DCFC above 80% anyway, so it's usually a non-issue. If you frequently drive a route where it's necessary though, well, that's an unfortunate fit (for most any current BEV).

 

[SnBGC]

80% is my home charge limit. With "300 miles" there's no reason to go above that at home.

Agreed. It is going be strange for me to have so much battery capacity available with this vehicle. I might find myself resisting the urge to plug in every time I reach my destination.

It's on road trips where I want to go beyond 80% and to do so with speed.

Boy. That is a big ask. You can fill up a stadium with a person in every seat and do so in an orderly fashion which will be better for the facility as well as the fans. Or you can just open the doors and let them fill in Black Friday style. Heck, might as well open the roof and let people jump in through the opening.

You will fill the building pretty quick. Expect some damage to your building and some people to die but it will be full none the less.

 

[DBC]

How come tesla is able to charge faster on their lgchem battery

The much more interesting question would be: How come the Audi e-tron is able to charge faster than the Tesla or the Mach-E when using the same LG Chem cells as the Mach-E.

Able and willing are apparently not the same thing.

 

[SteelMach]

It's logical to only charge to 80-90% at home most of the time unless your daily commute is very long. But when embarking on a road trip, that's the time to home-charge to 100% so you have max charge for the first leg of the road trip. Can probably get 150-200 miles out of that first leg (ER battery) at interstate speeds.

After that, yes, DCFC charging on the road is usually only practical below 80%. That's true in nearly all BEVs, as they all slow down quite a bit above 80% (although not as much as the MME currently is). Most people driving BEVs on road trips try to stop frequently enough so that they're living between the 10-80% SOC range of the battery.

That's not always possible, of course. Not every route has good DCFC coverage to be able to do that. When that's the case, a BEV is simply a poor choice for that trip. (Many people just use ICE for that, even renting if they don't have another vehicle).

Your point about the severity of the DCFC drop-off at 80% on the MME is a valid one, as it falls off far more than most. I too hope that improves some (maybe 25-40 kW instead of an L2-like 10-12 kW). But in practice, most people don't DCFC above 80% anyway, so it's usually a non-issue. If you frequently drive a route where it's necessary though, well, that's an unfortunate fit (for most any current BEV).

Of course I don't expect to go to 100% at each DCFC stop, but there will be times where it will be required in order to go beyond 80% to make the next charger - especially in winter.

I'm not asking for 150 kW at 99%.

I'm asking for the 11 kW cliff to be at 90% or 95%. Not 80%.

 

[SteelMach]

Agreed. It is going be strange for me to have so much battery capacity available with this vehicle. I might find myself resisting the urge to plug in every time I reach my destination.



Boy. That is a big ask. You can fill up a stadium with a person in every seat and do so in an orderly fashion which will be better for the facility as well as the fans. Or you can just open the doors and let them fill in Black Friday style. Heck, might as well open the roof and let people jump in through the opening.

You will fill the building pretty quick. Expect some damage to your building and some people to die but it will be full none the less.

Again, not saying 150 kW at 99.9% SoC. But if a minivan can DCFC at 90% faster than a Mustang, we've got a problem.

The Mercedes use LG Chem cells btw.

 

[TheSteelRider]

Here is the original article on Reuters, which will work if you are using a DNS filtering service (such as Pi Hole):

https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2AO0JS


Hyundai Motor to replace battery systems in $900 million electric car recall

By Heekyong Yang, Joyce Lee
3 MIN READ

SEOUL (Reuters) - Hyundai Motor Co will replace battery systems in some 82,000 electric vehicles globally due to fire risks - a costly $900 million recall that lays bare the thorny issue of how car and battery makers split the bill when problems arise.

The recall is one of the first mass battery pack replacements conducted by a major automaker.
“It’s very significant for both Hyundai and LG as we are in the early stages of the electric vehicle era. How Hyundai handles this will set a precedent not just in South Korea but also for other countries,” said Lee Hang-koo, senior researcher at the Korea Institute for Industrial Economics & Trade.
The recall mostly concerns the Kona EV, Hyundai’s biggest-selling electric car which was first recalled late last year for a software upgrade after a spate of fires. One of the recalled Kona EVs caught fire in January, however, and South Korean authorities launched a probe into whether the first recall had been adequate.
LG Energy Solution, a division of LG Chem Ltd which manufactures the batteries, was quick to deflect criticism.

It said in a statement that Hyundai misapplied LG’s suggestions for fast-charging logic in the battery management system, adding the battery cell should not be seen as the direct cause of the fire risks.
South Korea’s transport ministry said in a statement that some defects had been found in some battery cells produced at LG Energy’s China factory. Hyundai did not comment on the cause of the fires.
Hyundai shares tumbled 3.9% while those for LG Chem closed down 2.8% in line with the broader market.
Analysts said they had been told by Hyundai that an agreement on how to split the costs may be worked out next week. Even so, they thought it might take longer given that reputational stakes were high and the two firms appeared to be at odds over the cause of the fires.



Hyundai declined to comment on LG Energy’s statement or provide details on when it will work out costs, saying only it will first wait for the results of the transport ministry’s probe.
The recall applies to nearly 76,000 Kona EVs built between 2018 and 2020, including about 25,000 sold in South Korea. Some Ioniq EV models and Elec City buses are also included in the recall.
The estimated 1 trillion won ($900 million) in cost includes 38.9 billion won that was spent on the first recall.
There have been some 15 cases of fires involving the Kona EV - 11 in South Korea, two in Canada and one each in Finland and Austria.

Kona and Ioniq owners are advised to limit battery charging to 90% of capacity until the battery has been replaced, Hyundai said.
($1 = 1,111.7900 won)
Reporting by Heekyong Yang and Joyce Lee; Editing by Edwina Gibbs

 

[jhalkias]

The much more interesting question would be: How come the Audi e-tron is able to charge faster than the Tesla or the Mach-E when using the same LG Chem cells as the Mach-E.

Able and willing are apparently not the same thing.

I'm not an electrical engineer or electrician, but my understanding is that they have different internal charging in the car (800 volt vs 400 volt I think is the terminology - I may be wrong).

This may be an unpopular opinion with some of you, but I am not concerned about the "cliff" at 80% when you are DCFC. I have watched enough videos by @OutofSpecKyle and others that I am fine with the speed slowing down a good bit at 80%.

What I really care about though, is if the car can between 10% and that 80% maintain as much of that 150KWH charging speed as possible.

70% of an 88KWH battery pack is 61.6 KWH
150 KW/H is at top speed 2.5 KW/Minute
If you could theoretically maintain that speed between 10-80%, then you could charge the car from 10-80% in about 25 minutes (yes, I know maintaining that speed the whole time is unrealistic)

Ford has said that 10-80% would take about 45 minutes. If they can bend that curve so that it takes maybe 30-35 minutes, I think it would make a lot of people happy. It is much more efficient on a road trip to make more stops at lower durations to take advantage of the charge curve at a lower SOC than to say I want my 100% charge to be fast all the time and possibly damage the battery or risk fire.

So . . . I don't care so much about the 80-100% curve, but I DO care about the 10-80% curve. One of the biggest impediments to a BEV is the time to refuel. If on road trips that can be shorter within what the timeframe should be for normal stops, I think that is the best and safest compromise.

 

[buffasnow]

Agreed. It is going be strange for me to have so much battery capacity available with this vehicle. I might find myself resisting the urge to plug in every time I reach my destination.



Boy. That is a big ask. You can fill up a stadium with a person in every seat and do so in an orderly fashion which will be better for the facility as well as the fans. Or you can just open the doors and let them fill in Black Friday style. Heck, might as well open the roof and let people jump in through the opening.

You will fill the building pretty quick. Expect some damage to your building and some people to die but it will be full none the less.

That is such a vivid analogy!