Insufficient compensation for Dutch Lease Car drivers, missing 2020 delivery

dbsb3233

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This is why I asked for a guarantee from Ford that I could recieve my new car in the fiscal year 2020.
No automaker can guarantee that anyone receives a brand new model not even in production yet by the end of the year. There's just too many variables. COVID could still shut things down again, even at this point.

What the negotiated guarantee should have been was that you get your deposit fully refunded if they didn't deliver by the end of the year.
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Adrianus

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Agreed. If anyone should "make it right", it should be the NL government that created the tax breaks with arbitrary deadlines in the first place. How about they take some responsibility and issue a COVID extension to the deadline, which impacted all manufactures, not just Ford?

Ford should give full deposit refunds though for anyone that decides to cancel because if this.
The Tax breaks where a given fact, I knew that, and so did Ford. Ford took the risk, to pursade me to go for the Mach E, by giving me the assurance he would be deliverd in 2020.

We can arrgue that Covid-19 is something, nobody could have forseen.

My argument is that Ford took a commercial risk. Other companies did the same. If you make a prommis you stand by it, no matter what.

I am also not asking for full compenstaion. I give Ford the oppertunity to make good on there prommiss by adding some value to my car, which does not cost them, like "Active Drive Assist" for free, or some other option.

I am the individual here, and Ford is the Big Multinational Company.
 

dbsb3233

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The Tax breaks where a given fact, I knew that, and so did Ford. Ford took the risk, to pursade me to go for the Mach E, by giving me the assurance he would be deliverd in 2020.

We can arrgue that Covid-19 is something, nobody could have forseen.

My argument is that Ford took a commercial risk. Other companies did the same. If you make a prommis you stand by it, no matter what.

I am also not asking for full compenstaion. I give Ford the oppertunity to make good on there prommiss by adding some value to my car, which does not cost them, like "Active Drive Assist" for free, or some other option.

I am the individual here, and Ford is the Big Multinational Company.
It doesn't matter how big they are or aren't. Just because they're big doesn't mean it makes sense for them to throw stuff in for free.

Retailers try to persuade consumers to buy stuff all the time. That's what marketing is. Whether a consumer chooses to engage in a purchase with them is their own responsibility.

If Ford NL truly "promised" you delivery by the end of 2020 (something that there's no way they could guarantee that far in advance), then unless you have a contract explicitly stating the penalties for breaking that contract, the logical remedy here is for them to refund your deposit and part ways. Not to throw in freebies. Nothing wrong with asking, of course, but they're under no obligation to. And it doesn't make much business sense to do so either IMO. Ford NL wasn't the one taking the risk, you were.

If anyone should be making accommodation here, it should be the government extending the deadline of the tax breaks they're trying to manipulate consumer behavior with. It's governments that shut businesses down around the world due to COVID.
 

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Ofcourse it would be beneficial if Government extends the current tax 2020 regime due to Covid. However why should they? The new 2021 regime is part of a policy that was introduced a few years ago and everyone knows already for some years that it will change per 2021. Per 2022 it will change again. Should they change their policy only because Ford cannot deliver anymore in 2020? There are alternative EVs available.
Polestar was also hit by Covid but they are able to keep their promise for 2020 delivery.
Ford compensates because otherwise there will be a lot of cancellations and unsatisfied clients. It is a business case for them to compensate otherwise they wouldn't do it. The Nl and Norway are interesting countries for Ford, the others EU countries not at all. Hardly any are sold outside Nl and Norway. They have to sell EVs in the EU to avoid huge penalties. So they cannot afford many cancellations.
 

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If the reports are true that 30,000 of the 50,000 2021 MMEs are bound for sale in Europe, that sounds like more than "little interest" to me. If Ford does have small sales in Europe for their ICE vehicles (not so sure about that but I'll go with it for this point), then it shouldn't take many MMEs to offset that and avoid the fines.

The Polestar was always targeted for a much earlier release in 2020 than the MME. The MME was always targeted for a late-2020 release, so it didn't take much delay to easily push it over into 2021 (especially adding the extra time for transatlantic transport).

I don't expect that the government will extend their tax breaks due to COVID either (government's are usually above that sort of thing). But it is THEIR tax break. They're the ones deeming who gets them and when they get them. And they know darn well that industries around the world were largely shut down for 2 months. If they choose not to extend THEIR tax breaks, so be it. But the blame for that should be placed on the government for not making accommodations for the COVID shutdowns they imposed, IMO. Whether the MME is the only BEV that happened to be coming out at the end of 2020 is irrelevant to the issue of 2 months being lost to due factors beyond manufacturer control.

I get that delays suck. So do arbitrary government tax break deadlines that delivery of a vehicle may or may not qualify for. I'm in the same boat. While not as much money, I lose $1500 of tax break in my state if my MME doesn't make it in 2020 (which almost surely won't happen now). But I don't blame Ford for that. I knew that ordering a car way in advance that wasn't due out until 4Q2020 at the soonest would likely get delayed when a pandemic triggered governments to shutdown many industries across the world.
 


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If the reports are true that 30,000 of the 50,000 2021 MMEs are bound for sale in Europe, that sounds like more than "little interest" to me. If Ford does have small sales in Europe for their ICE vehicles (not so sure about that but I'll go with it for this point), then it shouldn't take many MMEs to offset that and avoid the fines.

The Polestar was always targeted for a much earlier release in 2020 than the MME. The MME was always targeted for a late-2020 release, so it didn't take much delay to easily push it over into 2021 (especially adding the extra time for transatlantic transport).

I don't expect that the government will extend their tax breaks due to COVID either (government's are usually above that sort of thing). But it is THEIR tax break. They're the ones deeming who gets them and when they get them. And they know darn well that industries around the world were largely shut down for 2 months. If they choose not to extend THEIR tax breaks, so be it. But the blame for that should be placed on the government for not making accommodations for the COVID shutdowns they imposed, IMO. Whether the MME is the only BEV that happened to be coming out at the end of 2020 is irrelevant to the issue of 2 months being lost to due factors beyond manufacturer control.

I get that delays suck. So do arbitrary government tax break deadlines that delivery of a vehicle may or may not qualify for. I'm in the same boat. While not as much money, I lose $1500 of tax break in my state if my MME doesn't make it in 2020 (which almost surely won't happen now). But I don't blame Ford for that. I knew that ordering a car way in advance that wasn't due out until 4Q2020 at the soonest would likely get delayed when a pandemic triggered governments to shutdown many industries across the world.
If that's true, 30k of 50k to Europe, USA people need to stop thinking there's not much more then USA as "we" buy 60% of the ordered units ;)

My guess is that NL orders will increase slightly the following period as Polestar 2 orders are completely full for this year. Only Tesla 3, of the populair EV's, can be ordered and delivered this year.
 

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I think it is quite simple. Nobody could foresee the Covid and as such not reasonable to make any party responsible despite the poor communication from Ford NL.

You can cancel without any costs like I did as well and choose any other alternative. The car is absolutely great but was already above what I like to pay for a car. Also I do expect a lot less kms after or during covid.

Still looking for a great phev or hybrid.
 

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Put your big boy pants on and stop whining. The world is different than it was in February.

Ford didn’t have a crystal ball. You didn’t either, obviously. They are doing the best they can under difficult circumstances.

Your government will be taking the money you don’t want to pay. Ask your government to change your tax laws. Your leaders know what has happened in the world these past months. They could make you whole with the stroke of a pen. Much more easily than Ford could give you a free car.
Why should Ford lower the price to appease and basically hand it to the Dutch government ? It's time people in the Netherlands start voting against this kind of nonsense.
Not only do these rates change, they've also screwed people over by altering tax discounts later on after people had bought them already. And if they're really as green as they pretend to (want) to be, don't even have ANY 'bijtelling' at all for 100% electric vehicles. You're already paying enough in road tax, sales tax and additional tax.
 

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The 2021 tax policy is not new and the higher tax rate per Jan 2021 was announced already a few years ago. If you want to benefit from the low tax rate of 8% you have to choose for an EV that can be delivered in 2020, like tesla, polestar, ipace, kona, Opel, MB, I3, etc.
EVs are already highly subsidised in Nl as the tax is only 8% in 2020 (12% per 2021 and was 4% in 2019) compared to 22% for ICE cars.
More than 95 % of lease drivers choose for EV because of the low tax. Not because of the environment.
Lease drivers do not pay any road taxes, insurances, petrol, maintenance, etc. The lease company does ofcourse.
So the only cost corporate lease drivers have, is the 12% tax in 2021. This equals to a net cost of about 350 per month for driving a car of 60 k, all inclusive. Although 8% tax was better, it still is not too bad I think. For an ICE with the same MSRP monthly net cost is about 600 euro per month.

But Ford made a promiss already in Corona time for delivery in 2020 and they asked us to process reservations into formal orders. As they can't keep their promiss and orders were placed it is fair to come up with a compensation on the one hand. On the other hand Ford is/was really concerned loosing orders to competitors and the impact on their CO2 penalties.
 
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Why should Ford lower the price to appease and basically hand it to the Dutch government ? It's time people in the Netherlands start voting against this kind of nonsense.
Not only do these rates change, they've also screwed people over by altering tax discounts later on after people had bought them already. And if they're really as green as they pretend to (want) to be, don't even have ANY 'bijtelling' at all for 100% electric vehicles. You're already paying enough in road tax, sales tax and additional tax.
Ford knew of the Tax break at the end of this year, we were already in Corona time, when they made there promiss to me.

Of course I can cancel the order, but then I will be left with my current lease car, because our company currently has a "lease stop".

I'm not asking for extra discount but for creativty. I proposed to them to give the Dutch customers a free Active Drive Assist and help them when they need to rent a gasoline car for summer or winter holliday.
 

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Ford knew of the Tax break at the end of this year, we were already in Corona time, when they made there promiss to me.

Of course I can cancel the order, but then I will be left with my current lease car, because our company currently has a "lease stop".

I'm not asking for extra discount but for creativty. I proposed to them to give the Dutch customers a free Active Drive Assist and help them when they need to rent a gasoline car for summer or winter holliday.
Did Ford themselves make the promise to you or was it the leasing company that you are getting the car from. Or even your company who is leasing the vehicle. I have said it before and I will say it again. IT'S NOT FORD'S FAULT THE CAR HAS BEEN DELAYED. It seems to me that most of the 'complainers' about this are people who are leasing their MME's. Surely it was the leasing companies who tied in their customers to confirm their orders and not Ford. The only market so far that has their order books opened has been the US. NO market on this side of the pond have had theirs opened yet so I don't understand how the leasing companies expected to confirm orders. If Ford NL pressed them for confirmations in a bid to make them look good then it should be Ford NL that pays the price and NOT Ford in general. Because of this situation with covid 19 I would imagine that almost ALL governments who give tax breaks/incentives will be looking at scaling back on them to try and recoup money. If, for arguements sake, they make changes on January 1st are we all to expect Ford to give us all a rebate because they said originally that the MME was to be launched at the end of 2020. The more you in the NL's keep going on about this subject the less sympathy you will get and the more annoyed you are making the members on here. I know I am getting fed up with it and this will be my last post on the matter and I am going to 'unwatch' this thread
 
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Did Ford themselves make the promise to you or was it the leasing company that you are getting the car from. Or even your company who is leasing the vehicle. I have said it before and I will say it again. IT'S NOT FORD'S FAULT THE CAR HAS BEEN DELAYED. It seems to me that most of the 'complainers' about this are people who are leasing their MME's. Surely it was the leasing companies who tied in their customers to confirm their orders and not Ford. The only market so far that has their order books opened has been the US. NO market on this side of the pond have had theirs opened yet so I don't understand how the leasing companies expected to confirm orders. If Ford NL pressed them for confirmations in a bid to make them look good then it should be Ford NL that pays the price and NOT Ford in general. Because of this situation with covid 19 I would imagine that almost ALL governments who give tax breaks/incentives will be looking at scaling back on them to try and recoup money. If, for arguements sake, they make changes on January 1st are we all to expect Ford to give us all a rebate because they said originally that the MME was to be launched at the end of 2020. The more you in the NL's keep going on about this subject the less sympathy you will get and the more annoyed you are making the members on here. I know I am getting fed up with it and this will be my last post on the matter and I am going to 'unwatch' this thread
It was Ford, who made the promiss.

My lease company could care less, what car I chose.

At the time (end of Febuary) Covid 19 already closed down a lot of factory's in China and it is was Ford who claimed to me that Covid 19 would not affect my delivery date.
 

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About the "open books" part. the first 2000 buyers in NL had to commit to their order right before the delay was announced.
I bought mine via a Ford dealer and they had a lot of trouble changing the configuration of their already ordered car.

I also think that you see this wrong:
YES we need to pay additional taxes when we lease a car (
YES the goverment had already set the tax amounts for a couple of years
NO gain for Ford if the buyers cancel their orders and lease a different car. The 3.000 euro compensation is mostly based on preventing lease riders to choose a different brand/car.

Taxes are:
2020 8% of maximum 45.000euro 22% above that cap
2021 12% of maximum 40.000euro 22% above that cap

If i do the math for a Mustang Mach-E with a catalog value of 53.525 (my car)
2020 = 224euro additional netto tax each month
2021 = 317euro additional netto tax each month
If you lease the car for 4 years = 48 months = 48x 93euro = 4464 euro netto more tax for the same car.

lowering the catalogvalue with 3.000 makes the following numers:
If i do the math for a Mustang Mach-E with a catalog value of 50.525 (my car)
2021 = 290euro additional netto tax each month

difference is 27euro a month netto, which is 1296 less for 4 years. so "only" 3168 euro more instead of 4464 euro.

Oh and btw, if you make more then 68,507 euro a year salary the tax is even more increased.
catalog value of 53.525 (my car):
2020 = 253 euro tax
2021 = 360 euro tax
 
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Did Ford themselves make the promise to you or was it the leasing company that you are getting the car from. Or even your company who is leasing the vehicle. I have said it before and I will say it again. IT'S NOT FORD'S FAULT THE CAR HAS BEEN DELAYED. It seems to me that most of the 'complainers' about this are people who are leasing their MME's. Surely it was the leasing companies who tied in their customers to confirm their orders and not Ford. The only market so far that has their order books opened has been the US. NO market on this side of the pond have had theirs opened yet so I don't understand how the leasing companies expected to confirm orders. If Ford NL pressed them for confirmations in a bid to make them look good then it should be Ford NL that pays the price and NOT Ford in general. Because of this situation with covid 19 I would imagine that almost ALL governments who give tax breaks/incentives will be looking at scaling back on them to try and recoup money. If, for arguements sake, they make changes on January 1st are we all to expect Ford to give us all a rebate because they said originally that the MME was to be launched at the end of 2020. The more you in the NL's keep going on about this subject the less sympathy you will get and the more annoyed you are making the members on here. I know I am getting fed up with it and this will be my last post on the matter and I am going to 'unwatch' this thread
Did Ford themselves make the promise to you or was it the leasing company that you are getting the car from. Or even your company who is leasing the vehicle. I have said it before and I will say it again. IT'S NOT FORD'S FAULT THE CAR HAS BEEN DELAYED. It seems to me that most of the 'complainers' about this are people who are leasing their MME's. Surely it was the leasing companies who tied in their customers to confirm their orders and not Ford. The only market so far that has their order books opened has been the US. NO market on this side of the pond have had theirs opened yet so I don't understand how the leasing companies expected to confirm orders. If Ford NL pressed them for confirmations in a bid to make them look good then it should be Ford NL that pays the price and NOT Ford in general. Because of this situation with covid 19 I would imagine that almost ALL governments who give tax breaks/incentives will be looking at scaling back on them to try and recoup money. If, for arguements sake, they make changes on January 1st are we all to expect Ford to give us all a rebate because they said originally that the MME was to be launched at the end of 2020. The more you in the NL's keep going on about this subject the less sympathy you will get and the more annoyed you are making the members on here. I know I am getting fed up with it and this will be my last post on the matter and I am going to 'unwatch' this thread


Indeed Ford NL made the promise and not the lease company. Ford NL obliged the lease companies and private reservation holders to conclude final orders preventing loosing our place in the que. This was in May and Covid was already there. There was no remark by Ford related to uncertainty of delivery due to Covid. They claimed no impact and even promised delivery in 2020 if you order now.
After final order it was also not possible to change the configuration anymore. So it makes sense that there is some kind of compensation by Ford NL
 

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I have the same problem as the other Dutch lease drivers.
2020 promised by Ford NL, 2021 delivery = 100 euro extra per month.

In my personal case I also got a dispute with my employer. Because the car was over budget I have a personal contribution in the lease fee of 90,00 euros. The 3000 euro discount will not only lower taxes but will also lower the monthly lease fee (confirmed by the leasing company), so you would expect also the amounth I need to pay because I'm over my budget.
However this money goes into the pocket of my employer, because by ordering my new leasecar I agreed on the personal contribution of 90 euro's.

Also, I see a lot of comments about canceling your order and order an onther car.
Canceling due to the delay is maybe allowed by Ford NL (I don't know for sure, but I think this is in the BOVAG rules), however the contract with my employer and the lease company I cannot cancel. They just don't allow me.

And to get ahead of you, moving to an other employer within the first year after delivery of my lease car will force me to buy of the contact or get a new employer to take over the contract.

Any orther Dutch people in the same situation? Any tips?
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