It's only my opinion. Not based on any FACTS

[ChasingCoral]

...if they're in position to do virtually all of their refuels with 8-hour charges while home sleeping, or at work, and don't need to do slow on-demand fillups at a station, then it's whole different matter. And that will be the mainstream market for BEVs IMO. Not people that need to charge at public stations.

There's another piece to it and I've heard this from other BEV drivers: we do virtually all of our refuels with inexpensive 8-hour charges at home and so taking twice as long for the occasional on-demand fillips at a station is well worthwhile. Yes, these are at comparable cost to gasoline but they are the rare exception in terms of total energy usage.

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[engnrng]

You have a point. However, I have never stopped at just purchase price when looking at the "economics" of car buying, which is what you seem to be doing. I was trained to look at life cycle cost of ownership, you either lack that training or don't care. A valid economic analysis of cost of ownership includes such considerations as fuel, maintenance, insurance, resale values over time. Also, I have always objected to the concept of an "EV Premium" (used to be what everyone called a "hybrid premium" 15 years ago). There is Car X that has features and performance and driving experience for price $X and Car Y that has features and performance and driving experience for price $Y. Then you adjust the price for ownership considerations over a period of time in order to truly compare ownership costs.

Have you ever referred to a "Safety Premium" when a car has anti-collision features, or is that just a trim level or option that has a higher cost than a base model? 15 years ago, Consumer Reports started a vile anti-hybrid campaign trying very hard to discourage anyone from paying a "hybrid premium". After 10 years, they pronounced that the Toyota Prius was the least cost car to own based on life cycle costs. So much for the "premium" argument - hybrids typically cost less after 5 years of ownership by more than a $5000 "premium". Trick question, to see if you understand: Which costs less - 1. A $60,000 Tesla - or a $45,000 ICE Audi, assuming performance and comfort are roughly the same?

And, the Kona does have a CCS plug, needs no adapter to plug in a DC Fast Charger.

 

[dbsb3233]

so taking twice as long for the occasional on-demand fillips at a station

A gas fill-up is 2-3 minutes. Twice that (say 5 minutes) only adds about 23 miles, well short of a fill-up. At least on average (47 miles per 10 minutes, per Ford). Although if done at the peak point of the curve (roughly 5-30% SOC), and on a 150 kW charger, 5 minutes adds 12.5 kWh, which should be somewhere in the 40-45 mile range. About 1/6th of a fill-up.

 

[ChasingCoral]

A gas fill-up is 2-3 minutes. Twice that (say 5 minutes) only adds about 23 miles, well short of a fill-up. At least on average (47 miles per 10 minutes, per Ford). Although if done at the peak point of the curve (roughly 5-30% SOC), and on a 150 kW charger, 5 minutes adds 12.5 kWh, which should be somewhere in the 40-45 mile range. About 1/6th of a fill-up.

However, almost the only time I need to go to a Level 3 charger is on a road trip. Those stops are more than 2-3 minutes as they normally entail getting fuel, going to the bathroom, perhaps getting coffee or a drink, stretching, etc. Those tend to be 10-15 minute stops.

Quick 2-3 minute fill up while driving to work or running errands because my fuel is low almost never happens with my Leaf and will be even less likely with the Mach E. The only times those happen with my Leaf is when someone has forgotten to plug it in at night. On work days, I solve that one by paying to fill at a nearby Level 2 charger while I'm in the office.

 

[dbsb3233]

However, almost the only time I need to go to a Level 3 charger is on a road trip. Those stops are more than 2-3 minutes as they normally entail getting fuel, going to the bathroom, perhaps getting coffee or a drink, stretching, etc. Those tend to be 10-15 minute stops.

Quick 2-3 minute fill up while driving to work or running errands because my fuel is low almost never happens with my Leaf and will be even less likely with the Mach E. The only times those happen with my Leaf is when someone has forgotten to plug it in at night. On work days, I solve that one by paying to fill at a nearby Level 2 charger while I'm in the office.

That's part of the Catch-22 though. When on a road trip (of significant length), one usually needs more than just 10-15 minute recharges along the way (40-80 miles' worth, depending on where you're at in the charge curve). Unless it's a short enough road trip that you only need a little more than one overnight charge. Or unless one is happy making a 10-15 minute stops every hour.

It can also be nerve-wracking, since the way you get the most miles most quickly on a partial charge is doing it on the low end of the battery. Meaning running it down to around 10% before stopping to recharge. Then you should be able to add maybe 75 miles in 10 minutes (while biting your nails praying that station is open and available). Or you play it safe and stop to recharge at 30% SOC, where it then takes 20 minutes instead of 10 to add the same 75 miles. Not impossible, of course, but annoying. All part of the game.

Completely agree on your 2nd paragraph. Again, that's why I'm planning on relegating my Mach-e to the around-home vehicle and doing 99.9% of my charging at home. And taking the Escape on any drives longer than maybe 120 miles/day (which are rare).

 

[ChasingCoral]

And taking the Escape on any drives longer than maybe 120 miles/day (which are rare).

For me, going from ~100 mile (Leaf) to ~280 mile (MME) nominal range will make road trips much better. My 4 hour drive to Stony Point, NY last summer would have only required one fuel stop at most, meaning I'd have to stop more for personal reasons than fuel reasons. That also means that making two stops along the way would mean I have to charge less on each stop.

 

[engnrng]

I can see that your grasp of chargers is about the same as your grasp of economic analysis. ? Charge rate is in units of power: kW. A kWh is a unit of energy. Even a L1 charger can deliver 150 kWh if you leave it plugged into a 150 kWh battery long enough.

When you say that the baseline today is a 150 kW charge rate, which is more than 1C for all EV cars on the road today, what brands are you using as a basis for that claim?

 

[engnrng]

There are no batteries or car charging management systems that allow highest rate of charge over the full charge cycle, not even the MME. On some cars, the power level reduces for any SOC above 50%, some start reducing charge rates at 70% or 80%. Your statement: "To get 150kWh in an hour you have to charge at a 150kW" does not apply to any cars currently in production, or announced for production in the next 3 to 5 years. Possible exceptions may be commercialized in the coming decade, but they have a long way to go. There are no 150 kWh batteries yet, and if there were, they would degrade significantly in tens of charge cycles.

 

[Ken7]

There are no batteries or car charging management systems that allow highest rate of charge over the full charge cycle, not even the MME. On some cars, the power level reduces for any SOC above 50%, some start reducing charge rates at 70% or 80%. Your statement: "To get 150kWh in an hour you have to charge at a 150kW" does not apply to any cars currently in production, or announced for production in the next 3 to 5 years. Possible exceptions may be commercialized in the coming decade, but they have a long way to go. There are no 150 kWh batteries yet, and if there were, they would degrade significantly in tens of charge cycles.

It's hard to believe that someone that claims to own a BEV can think you would get a linear charge rate up to 100%. I already showed how painfully slow a charging experience can be in another post. This is why most people, even at a SC, don't bother with that last 10-20%, it's too painfully slow. That was true even before Tesla throttled SC rates.

 

[dbsb3233]

There are no batteries or car charging management systems that allow highest rate of charge over the full charge cycle, not even the MME. On some cars, the power level reduces for any SOC above 50%, some start reducing charge rates at 70% or 80%. Your statement: "To get 150kWh in an hour you have to charge at a 150kW" does not apply to any cars currently in production, or announced for production in the next 3 to 5 years. Possible exceptions may be commercialized in the coming decade, but they have a long way to go. There are no 150 kWh batteries yet, and if there were, they would degrade significantly in tens of charge cycles.

I've had that discussion with him before. While he knows the difference, he keeps repeating it in a way that suggests an hour of real-world charging (on a 150 kW charger) actually adds 150 kWh. Which of course it never does because no BEVs have a fully linear charging curve (yet anyway).

All indications are the Mach-e will have a similar curve to the Model 3. Meaning, a very short portion of the charge curve where it accepts 150 kW. One Ford interview referred to it as "briefly". And their published "45 minutes to go from 10-80%" (on the 300 mile version) means it has to taper down rather soon for the numbers to add up. I'm estimating it'll start tapering around the 30% SOC point.

 

[ChasingCoral]

It's hard to believe that someone that claims to own a BEV can think you would get a linear charge rate up to 100%. I already showed how painfully slow a charging experience can be in another post. This is why most people, even at a SC, don't bother with that last 10-20%, it's too painfully slow. That was true even before Tesla throttled SC rates.

I disagree. While the enthusiasts understand these things, there are lots of BEV owners who think plugging in to charge is just like starting up a gas pump. It goes until it snaps off at full.

I know that's not how it works but lots of folks don't.

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