theblueone

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@jhalkias @silverelan @SteelMach @timbop @RX33 @Billyk24

I'm a bit late to the party here, but I can shed a little light on the e-tron's unusual charge curve. Audi uses a "conductive adhesive" to attach their battery cells to the battery cooling system. The result is better thermal flow from the battery into the liquid cooling loop, so they can keep the cells cool under higher sustained loads. As far as I have been able to tell, it is the only consumer BEV to do so. This is pretty shocking to me, since it's kind of like being the only computer company to put thermal paste on their CPUs. I have to assume that there is some big tradeoff (like replacing the battery being a giant pain in the ass), because thermal paste seems like a no-brainer to anyone who has spent time tinkering with computers.

The bad news is that it's a hardware difference, so other vehicles won't be able to turn on this functionality through software optimizations. The good news is that it doesn't seem to be anything proprietary, so a future MME battery pack (or even a very brave modder) should be able to implement the same solution.

As Billyk24 said, the warranty on the e-tron battery will replace it if it falls below 70% capacity in 8 years. Personally I'd like to see it a little higher, but I also assume that anyone willing to be on an EV fan forum is going to treat their car a bit better than the average user. I know that tons of DCFC and charging to 100% will harm my battery, so I'm going to avoid it when I can and see how long that will last. So far I've put 2200 miles on my e-tron and the range is actually going *up* as I get more familiar with it and better at optimizing my driving habits. (It could just be that the range is going up because the novelty is wearing off a bit and I'm not as prone to launching it off a green light.)

I also think that by the time the battery is below 70%, it will be worth replacing it with a brand new module with ~2027's battery technology regardless of warranty status. We're all paying the early adopter fee to bring BEVs into the mainstream, and I'll be excited to reap some of those dividends by the time our cars are middle-aged.
 

SteelMach

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@jhalkias @silverelan @SteelMach @timbop @RX33 @Billyk24

I'm a bit late to the party here, but I can shed a little light on the e-tron's unusual charge curve. Audi uses a "conductive adhesive" to attach their battery cells to the battery cooling system. The result is better thermal flow from the battery into the liquid cooling loop, so they can keep the cells cool under higher sustained loads. As far as I have been able to tell, it is the only consumer BEV to do so. This is pretty shocking to me, since it's kind of like being the only computer company to put thermal paste on their CPUs. I have to assume that there is some big tradeoff (like replacing the battery being a giant pain in the ass), because thermal paste seems like a no-brainer to anyone who has spent time tinkering with computers.

The bad news is that it's a hardware difference, so other vehicles won't be able to turn on this functionality through software optimizations. The good news is that it doesn't seem to be anything proprietary, so a future MME battery pack (or even a very brave modder) should be able to implement the same solution.

As Billyk24 said, the warranty on the e-tron battery will replace it if it falls below 70% capacity in 8 years. Personally I'd like to see it a little higher, but I also assume that anyone willing to be on an EV fan forum is going to treat their car a bit better than the average user. I know that tons of DCFC and charging to 100% will harm my battery, so I'm going to avoid it when I can and see how long that will last. So far I've put 2200 miles on my e-tron and the range is actually going *up* as I get more familiar with it and better at optimizing my driving habits. (It could just be that the range is going up because the novelty is wearing off a bit and I'm not as prone to launching it off a green light.)

I also think that by the time the battery is below 70%, it will be worth replacing it with a brand new module with ~2027's battery technology regardless of warranty status. We're all paying the early adopter fee to bring BEVs into the mainstream, and I'll be excited to reap some of those dividends by the time our cars are middle-aged.
Every BEV that uses pouch cells with end cooling like e-Tron, Bolt, Mach-E, ID.4, etc. all use thermal interface material to bridge between the cell and the cold plate. They're all comparable to your thermal paste on CPU analogy - it wouldn't work without it, so everyone has it.
 

supertramp

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I like watching Kyle videos, but so far he is one of the reasons I am still on a fence in MME process. My car is ordered, build week in 10 days, so, probably I could get my car as early as June/July - so, Ford is better fix these charging (and others) issues fast - this is just really bad technical decisions they made - and no excuses to be their first full EV - I totally expect them to use as much knowledge from other car manufacturers (pretty sure EV engineers are drifting around between different companies).
 

SteelMach

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I like watching Kyle videos, but so far he is one of the reasons I am still on a fence in MME process. My car is ordered, build week in 10 days, so, probably I could get my car as early as June/July - so, Ford is better fix these charging (and others) issues fast - this is just really bad technical decisions they made - and no excuses to be their first full EV - I totally expect them to use as much knowledge from other car manufacturers (pretty sure EV engineers are drifting around between different companies).
In Ford's defense, activating the session with the Electrify America app is honestly not that hard, and a better actual financial deal than using Plug&Charge, if you pay for the $4/month EA Pass+ membership, you get like 25% off on charging that you can't get via Plug&Charge.

I'll turn (and have turned) Plug&Charge off to save money. It's been 100% reliable once P&C was turned off.
 

supertramp

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In Ford's defense, activating the session with the Electrify America app is honestly not that hard, and a better actual financial deal than using Plug&Charge, if you pay for the $4/month EA Pass+ membership, you get like 25% off on charging that you can't get via Plug&Charge.

I'll turn (and have turned) Plug&Charge off to save money. It's been 100% reliable once P&C was turned off.
I understand. And I was not referring to P&C in this case - Kyle was not using it too. It just that even without P&C when charging is uninterrupted, the charging curve is close to being unacceptable - for 88kWh battery to be charged most of the time at 75kWh? It just not competitive and humiliating - there is no way the car will be widely accepted with that kind of charging curve.
 

SteelMach

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I understand. And I was not referring to P&C in this case - Kyle was not using it too. It just that even without P&C when charging is uninterrupted, the charging curve is close to being unacceptable - for 88kWh battery to be charged most of the time at 75kWh? It just not competitive and humiliating - there is no way the car will be widely accepted with that kind of charging curve.
Ah, I didn't realize what the "issues" you were describing were. Yes, they need to add battery preconditioning, but "most of the time at 75 kW" (assuming you didn't mean kWh) is not normal behavior either. Happily the Mach-E's current markets are entering summer now, giving them time to fix this before winter.

When the battery is warm, I don't see 75 kW at all. The 80% cliff hits at ~80 kW.
 

silverelan

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I understand. And I was not referring to P&C in this case - Kyle was not using it too. It just that even without P&C when charging is uninterrupted, the charging curve is close to being unacceptable - for 88kWh battery to be charged most of the time at 75kWh? It just not competitive and humiliating - there is no way the car will be widely accepted with that kind of charging curve.
Kris Rifa in Norway had a good analysis of the charging profile. Going from 8% to 78% in 42m 20s with average power of 88.3kW.

Screenshot_20210408-154655.png


From what I've learned, it goes from 150kW->100kW->80kW on basically a timer system to 80%.

Screenshot_20210408-155120.png


On paper at least, it seems to me on a road trip with the right charger spacing, you can maximize your road time by going from 100% down to 40-50%, recharge for ~20 minutes to get back to 80%, then drive down to 10-20% before taking a 30-40min break to get back to 80% again.

100% -> 40% = 150 miles
20 minute recharge
80% -> 10% = 150 miles
40 minute recharge
80% -> 10% = 150 miles
 

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