ab13

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4) I don’t want to encourage the business model of paying for the hardware and than separately charging for software subscriptions. That is one of the big reasons I dislike Tesla. I think there should be just one price for both. If you buy a premium (for other reasons like the glass roof, heated seats, extended range), you are forced to buy useless hardware (valued at thousands, according to Ford) that you can’t use at all without an additional purchase which is not a consumer friendly practice in my mind. It should be another trim level that includes both that sits above premium that those who want the feature can buy.
I think the only thing you don't get to use is the driver monitor, all the other parts are used for the 360 camera parking view. The subscription is for the high definition mapping and driver monitor, and future development.
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opennetus

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I think the only thing you don't get to use is the driver monitor, all the other parts are used for the 360 camera parking view. The subscription is for the high definition mapping and driver monitor, and future development.
Why is high definition mapping required for hands-free exclusively? The actual autonomous driving is no different between the “hands-on” and “hands-off” version. Both equally need to be able to see the lanes properly. The only difference that I see is the driver attention monitoring system (camera infrared sensor tracking eyes vs wheel torque sensor making sure you tap it occasionally), which has nothing to do with knowing about the road. Seems to me the car should/will get that detailed mapping regardless of whether you pay for it as it enhances safety when cars knows more about the road (and thus can handle unexpected situations more intelligently) and the last thing Ford wants is news headlines of cars with lane centering going off a road or getting in deadly accidents so I can’t see them withholding safety features behind a paywall.

For that matter, all cars likely ship with the mapping data already. The reason for the delay is to test the system more; if there are flaws, reaction times for drivers to manually correct will be slower if their hands are off the wheel (another reason to stick with hands-on; it will always be safer as no autonomous system is 100% reliable).

The subscription fee (in my mind) is “just because they can get away with it” and adding costs after purchase is easier to get people to swallow than increasing the purchase price itself (which every car reviewer and buyer will be looking at and factoring in; not to mention staying below state max MSRP limits for incentives).
 
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benk016

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Why is high definition mapping required for hands-free exclusively? The actual autonomous driving is no different between the “hands-on” and “hands-off” version. Both equally need to be able to see the lanes properly. The only difference that I see is the driver attention monitoring system (camera infrared sensor tracking eyes vs wheel torque sensor making sure you tap it occasionally), which has nothing to do with knowing about the road. Seems to me the car should/will get that detailed mapping regardless of whether you pay for it as it enhances safety when cars knows more about the road (and thus can handle unexpected situations more intelligently) and the last thing Ford wants is news headlines of cars with lane centering going off a road or getting in deadly accidents so I can’t see them withholding safety features behind a paywall.

For that matter, all cars likely ship with the mapping data already. The reason for the delay is to test the system more; if there are flaws, reaction times for drivers to manually correct will be slower if their hands are off the wheel (another reason to stick with hands-on; it will always be safer as no autonomous system is 100% reliable).

The subscription fee (in my mind) is “just because they can get away with it” and adding costs after purchase is easier to get people to swallow than increasing the purchase price itself (which every car reviewer and buyer will be looking at and factoring in; not to mention staying below state max MSRP limits for incentives).
The High Def mapping will help a ton I'm sure. I don't know how much you've used the current Lane Keep Assist and lane centering, but it doesn't work THAT well. On the highway by my house, every mile when there is a slow down lane for turning off, the car REALLY tries to follow that line and drive into that lane. I think the HD mapping will be to assist it in these situations. Helps it know what lanes are what and not just rely on the camera.
 

opennetus

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The High Def mapping will help a ton I'm sure. I don't know how much you've used the current Lane Keep Assist and lane centering, but it doesn't work THAT well. On the highway by my house, every mile when there is a slow down lane for turning off, the car REALLY tries to follow that line and drive into that lane. I think the HD mapping will be to assist it in these situations. Helps it know what lanes are what and not just rely on the camera.
yes, more mapping data is of course good. But my guess is that everyone will get that and it will also be used with lane keeping; not just hands-free. I don’t see Ford holding up a safety update behind a paywall; it is in their best interest to have the safest cars possible on the road.
 

benk016

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It wouldn't surprise me if the $600 is actually just paying for access to that mapping data. And the hands free requires the mapping data to function fully. That data should be continuously updated, hence having a subscription model for it.

I have a feeling it won't actually be downloaded to the car, but accessed in the cloud with your subscription. It may cache some but I doubt it downloads all the data.
 


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But my guess is that everyone will get that and it will also be used with lane keeping; not just hands-free. I don’t see Ford holding up a safety update behind a paywall; it is in their best interest to have the safest cars possible on the road.
I see what you're guessing as wishful thinking.

You could make a similar safety argument about ACC (adaptive cruise control) and AEB (automatic emergency brake). Yet ACC and AEB are stilled offered only in a higher trim on some makes and models.

Software are designed and written as a whole package for a certain purpose. It costs significant labor and money in an ongoing basis to cut up and reassemble the software (e.g., as you proposed, take "hands free" out of Hands Free). I don't think it will happen.
 

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@opennetus, you and I are of the same mind. I, too, remain unconvinced of what the $600 upgrade actually enhances. Yes, you can supposedly take your hands off the wheel, but in exchange now you've potentially got the car harassing you every time you momentarily break eye contact (unknown just how sensitive the the driver monitoring is).

Seems that you might be better off just resting a hand on the bottom of the wheel as opposed to in your lap. Or, if you really want to go "hands free" - hack it with a cheap ankle weight in the same manner as the Teslas. Some may scoff that that's unsafe, but really either way you've got to pay attention to the road! All the $600 seems to do is trade one form of driver monitoring (torque sensor on wheel) for another (potentially far more sensitive) form of driver monitoring.

I've posed this issue before, and still nobody has provided a convincing answer as to what actual benefit is derived from the $600 update. If the $600 adds better lane keep assist or other enhanced automation, then I might be interested. But we just have no idea.

I mean look at this dude. Nobody drives like that. That's not comfortable. Come on people!

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I've posed this issue before, and still nobody has provided a convincing answer as to what actual benefit is derived from the $600 update. If the $600 adds better lane keep assist or other enhanced automation, then I might be interested. But we just have no idea.
We do know, it lets you drive pre-mapped highways w/o your hands on the wheel. It sounds like that isn't worth it to you. It is to me and I will be spending the $600 for that capability.
 

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It wouldn't surprise me if the $600 is actually just paying for access to that mapping data. And the hands free requires the mapping data to function fully. That data should be continuously updated, hence having a subscription model for it.

I have a feeling it won't actually be downloaded to the car, but accessed in the cloud with your subscription. It may cache some but I doubt it downloads all the data.
Agree. You could use the same argument about any car navigation system. You pay for the hardware and the initial software. To get future map updates (as that data is always changing) you have to pay for it as it costs a finite amount of money to update that dataset. Would you expect to get indefinite map updates for free for the life of your car?
 

opennetus

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Agree. You could use the same argument about any car navigation system. You pay for the hardware and the initial software. To get future map updates (as that data is always changing) you have to pay for it as it costs a finite amount of money to update that dataset. Would you expect to get indefinite map updates for free for the life of your car?
Sure, it is called Google Maps and can be accessed completely free with CarPlay/Android Auto. There are many other free navigation software you can use too which have historically been more accurate than factory nav systems.

Decent driver assistance functions are just expected functionality these days and every automaker includes it with their new vehicles; they need to in order to be competitive. With Tesla’s free driver assist, you get pre-mapped highways at no cost. They have lidar equipped vehicles that drive around and collect the data. If highway mapping data is not included, Ford is basically just offering a worse version of standard driver-assist than Tesla offers as standard.

i wonder if someone could create a cheap little device that use a solenoid that jiggles the wheel every 20 seconds. Save everyone $600 in buying a camera nanny.
 
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TheVirtualTim

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Why is high definition mapping required for hands-free exclusively? The actual autonomous driving is no different between the “hands-on” and “hands-off” version.
To be clear, lane-center is NOT a self-driving feature and should not be thought of as such. Drivers are expected to be in full control of the car at all times. Lane center simply notices if you start to drift and tries to keep you centered in the lane. It does not know what it may encounter on the road.

The self-driving feature expected later this year isn't the same... that system DOES know what to expect to encounter on the road. It knows when it is approaching a curve, etc. The computer is ok as long as the road looks like what the computer expects the road to look like.

But the computer will not know if there's is an accident ahead and it's blocking the road. It also does not know if your department of public works decided to do road construction and it's about to encounter orange barrels, etc. So as long as the road is open, accident free, etc. etc. then the car can drive that section of roadway hands-free. But it does need to be able to compare sensor data to the high-resolution map data to make sure everything is ok.

The subscription fee (in my mind) is “just because they can get away with it” and adding costs after purchase is easier to get people to swallow than increasing the purchase price itself (which every car reviewer and buyer will be looking at and factoring in; not to mention staying below state max MSRP limits for incentives).
The problem with roads is ... they change. There are several areas around town where the actual roadway doesn't match with what the map data shows on some of my older cars.

This means if a self-driving mode were relying on an assumption that the map data is accurate. But if the roads have been changed ... that could be a recipe for disaster.

SO... Ford has to continuously update that map data. What you're basically paying for is a subscription service of them keeping the map data accurate.
 

ab13

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With Tesla’s free driver assist, you get pre-mapped highways at no cost. They have lidar equipped vehicles that drive around and collect the data.
???

Musk thinks lidar is the "devil". The whole point is what Tesla is doing is not to use pre scanned data. Plus they charge monthly for premium data features.

Google Maps and any other *free" maps cost data and personal information.
 

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???

Musk thinks lidar is the "devil". The whole point is what Tesla is doing is not to use pre scanned data. Plus they charge monthly for premium data features.

Google Maps and any other *free" maps cost data and personal information.
Elon Musk says a lot of things, but I personally think he didn’t want Lidar on customer cars because it is expensive and bulky and not having it is a cost-cutting measure.

Trust me, Google is getting your location data whether you use Google Maps or not. No such thing as data privacy anymore. And frankly, I don’t care if they have my location data or not. No guarantee paying for mapping doesn’t mean they are also not collecting and selling your data on the side.
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