ChasingCoral

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Hardware yes. OTA Update and subscription, not that I’ve seen.
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ajmartineau

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They need to have a buy out option for me to consider this upgrade. I don’t need another monthly or annual bill. For $60k they should include this in the OTAs.
 

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Sorry is this in the standard range vehicles already? Also is says get hardware what is that, is that install at the garage?
 

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Am I missing something here? This seems like a shadow of Tesla's basic autopilot included with every Tesla at no cost and no subscription fee? Other than autopark capability, it just adds hands free driving in your lane on a very limited selection of roads, or am I mistaken? I see a lot of comparisons to FSD, but it looks like it should be compared to basic autopilot. Basic autopilot can drive in your lane on any road, not just a very limited selection.

There will be a lot of debate on the whole "Hands off the steering wheel" thing, but I have to say I prefer Tesla's approach requiring you to have your hands on the wheel. Too many things can happen that might require instant reaction from the driver... That said, Tesla has already implemented "Eye tracking" and is gathering data for activation, so I guess the point is moot. Still, IMHO, driver's should have their hands on the wheel until a car is tuly L3 or better. I'm hoping Tesla does not actually activate eye tracking for the public until they achieve L3. (Which looks to be very much on the horizon.) Ford's system is clearly L2, and that only on certain roads.
 

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Sorry is this in the standard range vehicles already? Also is says get hardware what is that, is that install at the garage?
This was a North American press release, so was using our parts and features terminology.

Extrapolating to the UK specs: it looks like all models of Mach-E include Active Park Assist and the 360 camera parking aids. Those two features are bundled into the Co-Pilot360 Active Drive Assist Prep Package that is marketed here.

So as best I can tell, UK MMEs have the required hardware from launch. No word on when or if the hands free driving feature will launch there, or pricing.

Ford would also need to collect HD road data for UK and European highways, and regulatory approval. I've no idea whether these have already been underway.
 


macchiaz-o

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Am I missing something here? This seems like a shadow of Tesla's basic autopilot included with every Tesla at no cost and no subscription fee? Other than autopark capability, it just adds hands free driving in your lane on a very limited selection of roads, or am I mistaken? I see a lot of comparisons to FSD, but it looks like it should be compared to basic autopilot. Basic autopilot can drive in your lane on any road, not just a very limited selection.

There will be a lot of debate on the whole "Hands off the steering wheel" thing, but I have to say I prefer Tesla's approach requiring you to have your hands on the wheel. Too many things can happen that might require instant reaction from the driver... That said, Tesla has already implemented "Eye tracking" and is gathering data for activation, so I guess the point is moot. Still, IMHO, driver's should have their hands on the wheel until a car is tuly L3 or better. I'm hoping Tesla does not actually activate eye tracking for the public until they achieve L3. (Which looks to be very much on the horizon.) Ford's system is clearly L2, and that only on certain roads.
This release is describing some capabilities included in most of the Mach-Es that will be sold, as well as one OTA function (hands-free driving) that will be added next year.

SAE automation level 3 means that in specific situations and environments, like highway driving, the vehicle is in complete control. The driver's attention is not required. (The driver can play games or read or whatever.)

In my opinion, level 3 automation won't be arriving on any retail consumer, general purpose roadway vehicle any time in the next 5 or maybe even 10+ years.

In a June press release, Ford included a high level summary of the differences between Ford Co-Pilot360 and Tesla Full Self Driving Capability:

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...ot360-technology-adds-hands-free-driving.html

Ford Mustang Mach-E Mach-E Hands-Free Active Drive Assist PRICING Announced, OTA Update Available in Q3 2021 Mach-E-vs-Model-Y
 

ChasingCoral

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This release is describing some capabilities included in most of the Mach-Es that will be sold, as well as one OTA function (hands-free driving) that will be added next year.

SAE automation level 3 means that in specific situations and environments, like highway driving, the vehicle is in complete control. The driver's attention is not required. (The driver can play games or read or whatever.)

In my opinion, level 3 automation won't be arriving on any retail consumer, general purpose roadway vehicle any time in the next 5 or maybe even 10+ years.

In a June press release, Ford included a high level summary of the differences between Ford Co-Pilot360 and Tesla Full Self Driving Capability:

https://media.ford.com/content/ford...ot360-technology-adds-hands-free-driving.html

Ford Mustang Mach-E Mach-E Hands-Free Active Drive Assist PRICING Announced, OTA Update Available in Q3 2021 Mach-E-vs-Model-Y
Yes but Ford left off lots of Tesla features that Ford doesn't have: automated lane change, automated ramp entry/exit, automated collision with stopped cars.
 

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Am I missing something here? This seems like a shadow of Tesla's basic autopilot included with every Tesla at no cost and no subscription fee? Other than autopark capability, it just adds hands free driving in your lane on a very limited selection of roads, or am I mistaken? I see a lot of comparisons to FSD, but it looks like it should be compared to basic autopilot. Basic autopilot can drive in your lane on any road, not just a very limited selection.
Don't even go there. There is a reason SuperCruise is rated by reviewers and Consumer Reports as being far more advanced than FSD, which is basically a unsafe version of SuperCruise you can use on far more roads. In this sense, assuming the dead can cast shadows, FSD has the capability of making you a shadow of yourself.

Not to mention the price of FSD which is ridiculous.

But honestly my opinion is that only a complete moron would use FSD until it has a way of reliably alerting the driver when he/she needs to take control. Advertising a system as "Full Self Driving" and then, in order to avoid liability when FSD kills someone, saying in the manual that you have to be alert and have your hands on the wheel at all times is irresponsible. It took Waymo a couple of days to understand why a system like FSD could never.be safe, and at this point everyone other than a few self interested executives and some not very bright fanboys have figured out why this is true.
 

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Yes but Ford left off lots of Tesla features that Ford doesn't have: automated lane change, automated ramp entry/exit, automated collision with stopped cars.
True. But also true that Ford is comparing fully loaded Co-Pilot suite, included in MOST Mach-Es as sold, except for Hands-Free Driving subscription, with fully loaded Full Self Driving suite, which is a $10,000 upgrade.

Also from videos I've been watching from Tesla loyalists (Tesla has been extremely selective about who gets the latest FSD beta and has asked them to post videos of the experience), the system is far too unreliable. In a typical drive, the number of poor maneuvers and near crashes where the human has to intervene to save the situation is greater than 0 but needs to be zero for "full" autonomy.

Whereas with Ford, I don't see people complaining about crash safety of Co-Pilot360 driving assistance functions. Too early to know for hands-free driving, obviously. However, Cadillac Super Cruise is well reviewed as a safe and competent driving assistant.
 

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Yes but Ford left off lots of Tesla features that Ford doesn't have: automated lane change, automated ramp entry/exit, automated collision with stopped cars.
SuperCruise has automated lane changes so I think it's just a matter of time before Ford has this as well. Automated ramp/exits won't be part of the package because the ramps and exits aren't part of the geo fenced area.

Clearly Tesla doesn't have the ability to avoid collisions with parked vehicles. It's a problem because radar doesn't detect objects which aren't moving and the cameras aren't that reliable. Lidar will do the trick but it's too expensive and large to include in a consumer vehicle.

The Ford system can deal with this by having digital maps of what the road should look like, and then comparing what it's seeing to its maps. If there is a divergence it tells the driver to take control. Since Tesla doesn't have the mapping capability or the capability of alerting the driver they need to take control, it will just run into the truck, police vehicle, whatever unless the driver takes control and avoids the collations. This lack of functionality is why Tesla doesn't have "Hands Free Driving" -- you have to have your hands on the wheel and be prepared to take control at all times. This is of course unlikely to occur since if you think the vehicle is actually driving it's impossible to resist the temptation to let the vehicle drive, which, in turn is why the Tesla system is unsafe.

When Google first started its automated driving program the engineers almost instantly realized that a system like Tesla's could never be made safe when they saw their test subject actually falling asleep at the wheel. Their conclusion, now universally accepted by all but for a fringe few, is that either the vehicle does it all and the passengers can ignore driving or the driver has to be in control.

The GM and Ford systems are hybrids with three important features. One is that the digital maps allows for the vehicle to confirm what should be ahead. Two is that it can ensure the driver is paying attention. Three is that it has a system for alerting the driver that he/she has to take control.
 

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Yes but Ford left off lots of Tesla features that Ford doesn't have: automated lane change, automated ramp entry/exit, automated collision with stopped cars.
You left off, automated rolling through stop signs and then stopping as well as automated hard braking well before a stop sign.

I'm looking forward to that OTA update.
 

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Don't even go there. There is a reason SuperCruise is rated by reviewers and Consumer Reports as being far more advanced than FSD, which is basically a unsafe version of SuperCruise you can use on far more roads. In this sense, assuming the dead can cast shadows, FSD has the capability of making you a shadow of yourself.
Wow, your two posts are so filled with made up "facts" that I won't even begin to try and rebut all of them individually. For most of it I'll just go with "Money talks and bullshit walks." When I traded in my $17K Juke for a $70K Tesla Model Y, I assumed my insurance rates with USAA would skyrocket. Not only does the car cost over four times as much, it is an acknowledged fact that Teslas cost more to repair than other cars in their price class. Rather than going up, my insurance rates dropped $100/year. I was pretty surprised to say the least so I questioned the agent. According to her, USAA statistics showed cars equipped with FSD are in far fewer accidents than other cars and those accidents overall show far less injury. In her words: "According to our statistics, Tesla FSD equipped cars garner our lowest rates of any car due to their safety record." So, unless you can come up with some kind of fact to support your little rant, you should probably just walk...

But honestly my opinion is that only a complete moron would use FSD until it has a way of reliably alerting the driver when he/she needs to take control.
Don't you love it when people on the internet feel the need to express their completely uninformed and worthless opinion? Let's see, flashing red lights and a loud blaring horn, kind of just like a modern airliner. Good enough for an A330, good enough for a Tesla.

and some not very bright fanboys have figured out why this is true.
LOL. Obviously a LOT brighter than you... LOL
 

Nak

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You left off, automated rolling through stop signs and then stopping as well as automated hard braking well before a stop sign.
You're speaking of a beta that is not in general public release. The entire purpose of beta software is too identify issues so that they can be corrected. The beta is already on it's second release, and individual cars are learning locally as well. It's probably wiser to critique the finished product when it comes out in the next couple of months.

I have not had a chance to use the FSD beta myself, but stop sign and traffic light recognition in my old version is excellent. The car not only expects traffic control features in the map, but it also recognizes temporary and unlisted new signs & signals as well.

@ChasingCoral, perhaps you could explain why USAA gives my FSD equipped Teslas lower rates than any other car they insure?


Folks, there isn't anything wrong with critiquing FSD. But just jumping on a "I hate Tesla" bandwagon and ignoring facts just makes you far more biased "Fan Boys" than the worst fan boy I've seen on the Tesla forums. Anyone can play the "I saw this one thing on the internet!" game. Intelligent discussion requires more than that.
 

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Wow, your two posts are so filled with made up "facts" that I won't even begin to try and rebut all of them individually. For most of it I'll just go with "Money talks and bullshit walks." When I traded in my $17K Juke for a $70K Tesla Model Y, I assumed my insurance rates with USAA would skyrocket. Not only does the car cost over four times as much, it is an acknowledged fact that Teslas cost more to repair than other cars in their price class. Rather than going up, my insurance rates dropped $100/year. I was pretty surprised to say the least so I questioned the agent. According to her, USAA statistics showed cars equipped with FSD are in far fewer accidents than other cars and those accidents overall show far less injury. In her words: "According to our statistics, Tesla FSD equipped cars garner our lowest rates of any car due to their safety record." So, unless you can come up with some kind of fact to support your little rant, you should probably just walk...

Don't you love it when people on the internet feel the need to express their completely uninformed and worthless opinion? Let's see, flashing red lights and a loud blaring horn, kind of just like a modern airliner. Good enough for an A330, good enough for a Tesla.
Yes it is disappointing how the uninformed feel free to spout worthless opinions.

So let's unpack your opinions. First, if you knew anything about insurance rates you would know that luxury autos always have the lowest rates. Get a quote for a MB S class sedan and be enlightened.

And speaking of BS, I don't think your "agent" told you what you claim she said. I think you just made that up. Assuming she did say it, then no one but a fool would rely on what she had to say. Moreover, even if there was a difference in rates between Tesla vehicles with and without FSD, which I doubt, that wouldn't mean the system couldn't kill you. Insurance is based on what the claim is, and having the car malfunction and kill you isn't covered.

Everyone -- including Ford, GM, Volvo, BMW, MB, Waymo, Cruise Automotive -- knows FSD isn't safe. That's why they have separate subsidiaries that are designing self driving vehicles that are. But don't take my word for it, listen to people who actually have some understanding of autonomous driving. Here is what they have to say about the ACTUAL capabilities and safety of FSD and why FSD isn't full self driving:

“This is actively misleading people about the capabilities of the system, based on the information I’ve seen about it,” said Steven Shladover, a research engineer at the University of California, Berkeley, who has studied autonomous driving for 40 years. “It is a very limited functionality that still requires constant driver supervision.”

You can find more here: https://apnews.com/article/california-581df4f669e77269005ea3feede49713. Or just do a search and be enlightened.

The lack of safety in the Tesla driver assist systems are why Consumer Reports rates SuperCruise as being decidedly superior to Tesla's Autopilot, and that rating won't change with FSD because the Tesla system still won't have the ability to monitor and insure that the driver is paying attention. Or are you going to deny that SuperCruise gets a rating of 69 points with Tesla trailing badly at 57 points, closely followed by Ford's lowly Autopilot with 52 points.
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