DBC

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I have not had a chance to use the FSD beta myself, but stop sign and traffic light recognition in my old version is excellent. The car not only expects traffic control features in the map, but it also recognizes temporary and unlisted new signs & signals as well.
...
Folks, there isn't anything wrong with critiquing FSD. But just jumping on a "I hate Tesla" bandwagon and ignoring facts just makes you far more biased "Fan Boys" than the worst fan boy I've seen on the Tesla forums. Anyone can play the "I saw this one thing on the internet!" game. Intelligent discussion requires more than that.
Well software isn't going to help because the flaw in Tesla's system is that FSD lacks the necessary hardware to ensure the driver is paying attention. It's never going to be safe until that flaw is corrected.

Your position is amusing. You promote an unsafe and defective system, and when you're called out on it you claim "bias and hatred". Really?
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ChasingCoral

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Maric

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$600?!!! Day One buy. That's crazy. Even if I have to pay this every 3 years, it's better than plunking down $10k in one lump sum.
 
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JCHLi

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Am I missing something here? This seems like a shadow of Tesla's basic autopilot included with every Tesla at no cost and no subscription fee? Other than autopark capability, it just adds hands free driving in your lane on a very limited selection of roads, or am I mistaken? I see a lot of comparisons to FSD, but it looks like it should be compared to basic autopilot. Basic autopilot can drive in your lane on any road, not just a very limited selection.

There will be a lot of debate on the whole "Hands off the steering wheel" thing, but I have to say I prefer Tesla's approach requiring you to have your hands on the wheel. Too many things can happen that might require instant reaction from the driver... That said, Tesla has already implemented "Eye tracking" and is gathering data for activation, so I guess the point is moot. Still, IMHO, driver's should have their hands on the wheel until a car is tuly L3 or better. I'm hoping Tesla does not actually activate eye tracking for the public until they achieve L3. (Which looks to be very much on the horizon.) Ford's system is clearly L2, and that only on certain roads.
Yes, you are missing something.

If you don't want the hands free you can use the features to drive in lane with hands on the wheel without extra cost.
 

Maric

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MachE FE buyer here. Not a Tesla fanboy, but I'll chime in here on Tesla's FSD. Have driven a 3 and Y with FSD for hundreds of miles. I was extremely impressed with how well FSD performed, even before this latest Beta release. Tesla's FSD is basically AI learning. The system definitely has some holes now (as do all self driving systems in existence). But I think in the end Tesla's system is going to be superior to 'drive on rails' systems being implemented by other manufacturers because the software will be able to make decisions to a degree other systems won't have the capacity to do.

Do I agree with Musk's ethics on how he has portrayed and implemented FSD? No. Would I trust FSD wholly and not pay attention to the road? Not right now. Do I see the software maturing to the point that this will be feasible? Yes, as more and more Tesla's are on the road and contribute data the time with which the AI will be ready exponentially lessens. I do believe Tesla's FSD will end up being phenomenal.

We all know about the morons that were watching Harry Potter, sleeping, reading, etc. and got into sometimes fatal accidents with Tesla FSD on. I still place the blame on the driver. Now there were situations where the software definitely was not up to par resulting in terrible accidents and some deaths. I believe Tesla should be culpable in those incidents. One example is where a Model X steered into a highway column at top speed because it was confused by construction that was going on.

But I have watched many hours of Youtube's where a Tesla's AI predicted an accident and avoided it, saving the occupants from what would surely have been a severe accident and possible fatality. My Audi does that to an extent now, but it's no where near the capability of a Tesla.

The promise of self driving cars becoming a reality will have huge ramifications on society. People who can no longer drive will have the ability to get to the bank, the grocery store, doctor's appts. Things most people take for granted but others have to rely on friends, family, Lyft to do now. If it were not for Tesla, we would not be anywhere near a self driving future. They jump started the industry. In my opinion that's a good thing and in the end taking chances will benefit us all.

Oh, and I have USAA. I drive a Q5 and my rates went up from the Mazda CX5 I was driving. Perfect record. So no, luxury vehicles don't 'always' provide discounted insurance rates.
 
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timbop

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If it were not for Tesla, we would not be anywhere near a self driving future. They jump started the industry. In my opinion that's a good thing and in the end taking chances will benefit us all.
Yes they did, but honestly I think Musk's fascination with self driving has made him take his eye off the ball from the more critical mission. It's imperative to get society off of fossil fuels, and with the amount of cash and effort that Elon has pumped into self driving has almost certainly taken away from him investing in QC and a more affordable BEV. The model 3 SR is a pretty good value for a BEV, but it is still too expensive for a large portion of the population. Imagine if he had invested in bringing down battery costs 5 years ago instead of self driving?

I understand the point about those that can't drive any more, but uber/lyft go a long way to helping those people.
 

Maric

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the amount of cash and effort that Elon has pumped into self driving has almost certainly taken away from him investing in QC
This is the very reason I went with the MachE over a Tesla so I don't disagree.
 

horsiedad

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Lot’s of “interesting” perspectives on Active Drive assist vs. Tesla FSD. Here’s my take as a future MME FE owner:

  • From what I’ve seen, Telsa’s FSD beta is more capable than what’s promised with Active Drive Assist (which won’t even come to market until the end of 2021). Some of the videos that I’ve seen of Telsa drivers using FSD is quite impressive.
  • Tesla clearly has a lead in this area. We hope that Ford catches up soon.
  • Would I use FSD today? Probably not. But like all new technologies, FSD will follow an adoption curve. Early adopters will work out the kinks first. Let’s hope that no one gets killed in the meantime.
  • Ford Active Drive Assist will be quite useful to me and I’m happy for pay $500.00 for this capability next year.
  • For all the talk about Tesla’s FSD near misses, this all need to be put into context. Compare FSD's record to human-caused accidents, and I’ll take FSD over drunk, high, distracted, texting, talkative humans.
  • I’ll pay even more for FSD if/when Ford makes it available. It will be safer than human driving. I’m looking forward to the day when FSD is commonly available on all new cars.
 

Nak

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Yes it is disappointing how the uninformed feel free to spout worthless opinions.
Great, we agree here! Here's a hint though, don't spout worthless opinions if it disappoints you so much. How much experience did you say you had with FSD? Or with automated control systems in general? Have you taught or researched human factors in automated control systems? Any relevant knowledge whatsoever? I didn't think so.

So let's unpack your opinions. First, if you knew anything about insurance rates you would know that luxury autos always have the lowest rates. Get a quote for a MB S class sedan and be enlightened.
Thank you for making me laugh so hard!!!

Insurance is based on what the claim is, and having the car malfunction and kill you isn't covered.
Umm, you do know that this sentence doesn't make any sense, right?

Everyone -- including Ford, GM, Volvo, BMW, MB, Waymo, Cruise Automotive -- knows FSD isn't safe. That's why they have separate subsidiaries that are designing self driving vehicles that are. But don't take my word for it, listen to people who actually have some understanding of autonomous driving. Here is what they have to say about the ACTUAL capabilities and safety of FSD and why FSD isn't full self driving:

“This is actively misleading people about the capabilities of the system, based on the information I’ve seen about it,” said Steven Shladover, a research engineer at the University of California, Berkeley, who has studied autonomous driving for 40 years. “It is a very limited functionality that still requires constant driver supervision.”

You can find more here: https://apnews.com/article/california-581df4f669e77269005ea3feede49713. Or just do a search and be enlightened.
You REALLY need to work on your reading comprehension. This doesn't say FSD isn't safe, it says that because the name FSD is misleading that could lead to a dangerous situation. I will agree with that 100%. The name should NOT be "Full Self Driving." It's OK to say that Tesla is attempting to make it so, which is true. But as you've so clearly demonstrated, there are too many really stupid people in the world who might not understand the term "beta." So we are agreed on this point.

The lack of safety in the Tesla driver assist systems are why Consumer Reports rates SuperCruise as being decidedly superior to Tesla's Autopilot, and that rating won't change with FSD because the Tesla system still won't have the ability to monitor and insure that the driver is paying attention. Or are you going to deny that SuperCruise gets a rating of 69 points with Tesla trailing badly at 57 points, closely followed by Ford's lowly Autopilot with 52 points.
If you are going to reference a report, you really should read the report first. That's what smart people do. In fact, CR rated Tesla's autopilot 9/10 in " Capabilities and Performance," the highest rating in the test. In "Ease of use" Tesla scored 7/10, again the highest rating in the report. Tesla lost points because it can be engaged anywhere, CR didn't like that. Tesla also lost points for recognizing an "Unresponsive driver" since they don't use eye tracking. I'd disagree with that since Tesla requires you to interact with the steering wheel almost continuously. Kind of a moot point since Tesla will have eye tracking long before Q3 2021. Here's a link to the actual report. You're welcome. Consumer Reports

I gotta say DBC, you remind me of my favorite line in a song ever. It's in "Banditos" by the Refreshments. and the line isn't "So meet me at the mission at midnight", LOL. Great song and great band. Anyways, thanks for that. Go ahead and rant some more, you'll be on "ignore." Life's too short to deal with, well, you know. LOL.
 
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Nak

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Yes, you are missing something.

If you don't want the hands free you can use the features to drive in lane with hands on the wheel without extra cost.
Thank you for clarifying that. That's precisely why I asked if I was missing something. So if I rest my hand on the wheel, the car will drive and stay in the lane? Will it maneuver to avoid an accident? (Steering, braking and acceleration as required?)
 
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JCHLi

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Thank you for clarifying that. That's precisely why I asked if I was missing something. So if I rest my hand on the wheel, the car will drive and stay in the lane? Will it maneuver to avoid an accident? (Steering, braking and acceleration as required?)
With ACC and lane keeping (or is it lane centering) yes, you can have the car keep you in the lane and adjust for traffic and speed limit signs.

As far as the part about maneuvering to avoid an accident, I'm not going to test that. I believe the claim is to it will help you steer for avoidance. But it's a safety feature not a driver assistance feature.
 

Nak

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I do want to be clear here, IMHO, FSD as it currently sits is not worth the price. Not even close. As was pointed out earlier it's really more of a "Kickstarter" campaign. You're funding Tesla's efforts at autonomous driving. If Tesla succeeds, you end up with an L4 or L5 car for a fraction of it's worth. If Tesla does not succeed, then you are out a pile of cash. If one was to buy a Tesla and not be cool with that, then one should not buy FSD. I invested in FSD knowing that full well. If I lose that money I'd still be very, very happy with my Tesla investments. TSLA has quite literally changed my life massively for the better.
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