Mach-E to gain access to Tesla Superchargers! Get standard NACS port starting 2025! [⚠️ ADMIN WARNING: NO POLITICS / SOCIAL / MUSK COMMENTARY]

[kodiakng]

Could be. Gets into the interpretation of what's meant by "contactless payment for credit/debit cards".

Frankly, I find their insistence that there be a "non-membership" (which I assume simply refers to the typical free account profile) method a bit silly. Yeah, we all get a little annoyed at having to put one more app on our phones (even though we already have 100 by choice), but I'd much rather do that than sit there and type in my credit card numbers standing in the sun trying to get a charge. First world problems. Far more important is just getting more and better DCFC covering travel routes across the country.

Too much "holding the good hostage to the perfect". (And ironically, the "good" network is much better than the "perfect" ones that meet the requirement.)

agreed on those points. the actual NEVI standards document is here and includes some discussion around the "contactless payment method" which will be used as interpretation factors during program rollout:

Contactless Payment Methods

The FHWA received a few comments requesting that the definition of “contactless payment methods” explicitly include payment by mobile application in order to provide another effective accessible payment option.

FHWA Response:
The FHWA agrees that payment by mobile application linked to a particular charging station would provide another effective accessible payment option. Although payment by mobile application would be inherently included in the proposed definition as “another payment device,” the definition has been modified in this final rule to explicitly incorporate payment by mobile application.

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[dbsb3233]

agreed on those points. the actual NEVI standards document is here and includes some discussion around the "contactless payment method" which will be used as interpretation factors during program rollout:

The problem there is "another". Taken at face value, that means that an extra method is fine (as is obvious), but it doesn't mean "instead of" which is the point of contention (not having to install contactless CC readers on-site).

Contactless Payment Methods​

​

The FHWA received a few comments requesting that the definition of “contactless payment methods” explicitly include payment by mobile application in order to provide another effective accessible payment option.​

​

FHWA Response:​

The FHWA agrees that payment by mobile application linked to a particular charging station would provide another effective accessible payment option. Although payment by mobile application would be inherently included in the proposed definition as “another payment device,” the definition has been modified in this final rule to explicitly incorporate payment by mobile application. ​

 

[kodiakng]

The problem there is "another". Taken at face value, that means that an extra method is fine (as is obvious), but it doesn't mean "instead of" which is the point of contention (not having to install contactless CC readers on-site).

i think what we're dancing around here is whether any of this will stop tesla from qualifying for NEVI funds. if you want to take the gentleman's wager that it will, i'll happily take the other side and see what happens.

 

[Larry Paul]

In a perfect world the charge port of the 2025 Mach E, F150 Lightning (and retrofittable to prior model years as a kit) would look something like this:

I am fine with swapping out the NACS in place of the CCS, however, it would be ideal in my mind to keep the J1772 to easily use existing L2 infrastructure without needing an adapter.

With the design of the J1772 charge handle you could not plug into the NACS plug if there was something in the J1772.

Thoughts?

 

[dbsb3233]

i think what we're dancing around here is whether any of this will stop tesla from qualifying for NEVI funds. if you want to take the gentleman's wager that it will, i'll happily take the other side and see what happens.

Oh they may find a way (including lobbying to get the requirements tweaked, possibly with Ford's backing now). That would probably be my first priority if I were them. They have a compelling case by simply touting having the best network by far.

Or they may add CC readers of some form (kiosks?). Not saying they're definitely NOT going to. Just saying that I'm not convinced they definitely ARE going to just to get the NEVI funding.

I think there's a real chance they may just say (like they did to CA already) "Thanks for the offer, but that would hinder our ability to keep rolling out our well-perfected, cost-effective charging network that's working just fine as it is".

"Free money" is powerful, no doubt, but they have to weigh that against what they think may be added cost, failure rates, support, and mess.

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/tes...lifornia-subsidies-for-supercharger-projects/

 

[SWO]

with the two largest current suppliers of EV vehicles in the US now supporting the NACS connector there isn't much chance of NEVI's "CCS only" stance holding up - it will be revisited.

my guess is there will be a shift to NACS everywhere - there is just too much headwind to fight against for the smaller manufacturers and providers. they don't have enough volume collectively to support a second connector style for a nationwide network of chargers.

WADR I think there's almost zero chance of that. This doesn't change any of the reasons for excluding the Tesla Superchargers...it just means there's 2 companies in the closed network.

 

[kodiakng]

Thoughts?

the problem isn't just the physical surface space - it's the wiring and internal control and switching into the charger and battery+BMS. simplifying that path is also a big reason for the switch to NACS.

 

[Larry Paul]

the problem isn't just the physical surface space - it's the wiring and internal control and switching into the charger and battery+BMS. simplifying that path is also a big reason for the switch to NACS.

Understood...but all of that control electronics and BMS is not mounted just behind the panel. I think the major impetus to switch away from CCS in favor of NACS is the lack of/poor infrastructure of CCS-and the superior existing (and future) NACS infrastructure.

 

[SWO]

Only if Tesla adds credit card readers though, which is another of the requirements. Still unclear whether they'll mess up their efficient SC model to do that. They already decided it wasn't worth it to get California's subsidies. Granted, that was a much smaller pot of taxpayer money than the feds are throwing around. But still, I'm not convinced they'll do it for the fed money either.

It doesn't matter if they add CC readers. It's a closed network.

If anything, this deal reduces the chances of Tesla having anything to do with NEVI funds because Ford is presumably paying Tesla for access.

 

[buzznwood]

the problem isn't just the physical surface space - it's the wiring and internal control and switching into the charger and battery+BMS. simplifying that path is also a big reason for the switch to NACS.

And yet in Europe Tesla uses CCS.2 so it is not really an issue. Still I am sure there will be plenty of peope happily waiting for a new Ford EV with the Tesla connector as there will be those for it being another nail in the coffin of never getting another Ford.

 

[AliRafiee]

Your experience is quite the exception, rather than the rule. Hopefully Tesla will continue to build out infrastructure in your area. Their network, overall, is the best by a long shot. Overall, CCS in comparison is quite poor. Again though, if you hate Tesla/Elon Musk/NACS/Superchargers so much, you are quite free to never use them.

It’s not that I hate Teslas. It’s just a numbers game. There are far more of them on the road than all other EVs combined, most of which can’t drive far enough.
here is the comparison between available CCS and Tesla chargers on my usual road trip. Seattle to Vancouver.

 

[Billyk24]

Munro Live has already put out a nice YouTube video on this. My take-away is that while it’ll only be a matter of time, CCS is a “dead man walking” (on death row).

Ford’s Bold Move: Embracing Tesla’s NACS for EVs

Ccs is dead man's walking! Then Biden charging rollout needs to be modified.

 

[EVandSolar]

It’s not that I hate Teslas. It’s just a numbers game. There are far more of them on the road than all other EVs combined, most of which can’t drive far enough.
here is the comparison between available CCS and Tesla chargers on my usual road trip. Seattle to Vancouver.

Out of curiosity, I checked a bunch of the SC's between Seattle and Vancouver on my app. They all showed majority of stalls available(now i.e. 9 pm EST Friday evening). I know Cali has tons of EV's compared to the rest of the country so I figured maybe the SC's are much busier there. There was a SC in Seattle that I clicked on that was 15/16 in use though! Definitely seems like higher usage in your area!

You'll be gaining:
Stations that almost always work i.e. 99.6% uptime.

Seems like, even if only 6 on your route, it's far more than needed for a trip that does not require a charging stop? And you'll still have access to the CCS if you need them.

I could use CCS in the Tesla, but SC coverage is so good, I think it would be really hard to find a geographical area that would show a need or benefit to keeping a CCS adapter in my car.

 

[EVandSolar]

This was probably mentioned, but I think it's really cool that Ford owners will be able to just plug in and charge without jumping through any hoops i.e. seems like they are making it very user friendly.

Does it work that way at other chargers? Or is it necessary to hope the touchscreen and card reader works on CCS locations?

We've used quite a few CCS in our Kia, and we've had quite a few instances of having to change stalls to get a screen/charger/payment to work. It's always worked in the end, but not without some occasional/somewhat frequent hassle.

 

[mkhuffman]

..

This was probably mentioned, but I think it's really cool that Ford owners will be able to just plug in and charge without jumping through any hoops i.e. seems like they are making it very user friendly.

Does it work that way at other chargers? Or is it necessary to hope the touchscreen and card reader works on CCS locations?

We've used quite a few CCS in our Kia, and we've had quite a few instances of having to change stalls to get a screen/charger/payment to work. It's always worked in the end, but not without some occasional/somewhat frequent hassle.

If everything is working properly, you can plug in a MME into a EA charger and it will automatically charge.

Your experience with trying to charge your Kia is pretty common and it is why this announcement is so awesome. Once they provide the adapter I might start using the SC network exclusively. It will definitely reduce road trip stress.

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