NoPlanetB

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The only way I can come up with your number of 25 KwH per 100 Km is if the range of the Mustang Mach E is 356 Km or 221 miles?
Ionity chargers are mostly along the autobahn in Germany. At typical autobahn speed (say 80 mph) we are easily looking at a consumption of around 25 kWh/100 km (or more) including charging loss, and a correspondingly lower range.
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NoPlanetB

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Found a comment by Chris in the comments section of his video that no interruptions occurred during his 900 km road trip. OK, it shouldn't really ever happen, but at least it wasn't a recurring thing. Might even have been a problem specific to that particular Ionity station.

The videos of his test and road trip are coming out in the next two weeks. Already looking forward to that.
 

I.Adams

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Thanks for the explanation, but could you check my maths here. I'm still getting used to the math of charging electric vehicles AND I was having to do some conversions between imperial units and SI.

Assumptions:
You are paying €0,79 per minute to charge at an Ionity charing station, and this is for DC fast charging.
You are charing an extended range Mustang Mach E with a battery pack that has 88 KwH of usable capacity.
You charge the battery pack from approximately 0 to about 80% capacity.
It takes about 41 minutes to charge the battery pack from approximately 0 to 80% capacity per Ford's specifications.
The Mustang Mach E has a range of 230 miles on a full battery pack. That equates to about 368 Km.

So, to charge the car, you are paying Ionity €0,79 per minute x 41 minutes = €32,39 for 88KwH x 0.8 = 70.4 KwH of energy or 368 x 0.8 = 294 Km of range.

So, you're paying €32,39 / 294 = €0,11 per Km, or €11 per 100 Km?

The only way I can come up with your number of 25 KwH per 100 Km is if the range of the Mustang Mach E is 356 Km or 221 miles?
Sorry, you don't have to pay per minute... NOT PER MINUTE. You have to pay the kWh! In this case it doesn't take any sense of you have the SR or the ER battery, if you charge DC vor 10 minutes or half an hour. The use kWh per distance (here in Germany we calculate in 100 km) is in this case important for our wallet ?.
Sorry, may be I haven't correctly pointed out.
 

memcm_expert

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Well, I can help you. As you mentioned Ionity is very often presented as THE NO. 1 CHARGING SOLUTION COMPANY in Europe.

B U T... Ionity increased their prices dramatically. Charging with Ionity means to pay 79 Euro cent per kWh in Germany. An this guy had a open fight with the CEO of Ionity. Ionity is an assembly of many auto builder. Ford is one of them.

Another reason he was angry was, that the loading process was interrupted several times by the mustang itself. There is another German video, where two reports drove from castle Neuschwanstein in South Germany to Flensburg North Germany. They stopped at each charging station what was on their trip. Nearly 30% of the stops were interrupted. FORD will have a big task to do while solving these problems. It's one story to develop, to create and to build such a car. But charging is a rather new mission isn't it? ?

(sorry for my English. I'll do my very best while giving you informations. I promise you. Greetings from Germany)
Sir, never apologize for your English. I guarantee you that your English is 99.9999999% better than all American's German.

Thank you for doing what you do.
 

Jimrpa

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Sorry, you don't have to pay per minute... NOT PER MINUTE. You have to pay the kWh! In this case it doesn't take any sense of you have the SR or the ER battery, if you charge DC vor 10 minutes or half an hour. The use kWh per distance (here in Germany we calculate in 100 km) is in this case important for our wallet ?.
Sorry, may be I haven't correctly pointed out.
Thanks! I’m still trying to understand how charging payment works. Apparently, in Pennsylvania you pay by minute and in New Jersey, you pay by kW. It sounds like Germany is like New Jersey in that respect.
 


sockmeister

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Thanks! I’m still trying to understand how charging payment works. Apparently, in Pennsylvania you pay by minute and in New Jersey, you pay by kW. It sounds like Germany is like New Jersey in that respect.
I'm in PA too. Interestingly, it seems the PA $/min rate is $0.16, and in NJ the $/kwh is $0.43. That means that as long as your charging rate is above 22kw/h in PA, the overall price will be cheaper. Seems like a good deal. Am I missing something?
 

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Thanks! I’m still trying to understand how charging payment works. Apparently, in Pennsylvania you pay by minute and in New Jersey, you pay by kW. It sounds like Germany is like New Jersey in that respect.
At the first loading session in the video, both cars were at the same charger and had to share the power of 150KW (each one had 74,.. KW) If they had to pay/minute, they were paying the double to reach the 80%. That's why they pay per charged KWh.
 
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The MME's charge profile is not bad but could be much better.

Until they make a change, the 150kW claim is still a 3 minute gimmick with the reality being ~100kW being the highest sustained charging speed.
 

Jimrpa

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I'm in PA too. Interestingly, it seems the PA $/min rate is $0.16, and in NJ the $/kwh is $0.43. That means that as long as your charging rate is above 22kw/h in PA, the overall price will be cheaper. Seems like a good deal. Am I missing something?
I saw that, and that’s part of why I don’t get charging still? What does a price per kWh even mean? I get “per minute” (I think) - that’s from the time they start sending electricity to your car to the time they stop sending electricity to your car. I’m not sure how a charge per kWh is measured?
 

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I'm in PA too. Interestingly, it seems the PA $/min rate is $0.16, and in NJ the $/kwh is $0.43. That means that as long as your charging rate is above 22kw/h in PA, the overall price will be cheaper. Seems like a good deal. Am I missing something?
With Electrify America?

In Pennsylvania your rate will be $0.32/min.

EA's price tiers are:

1-90 kW = $0.16/min
1-350 kW = $0.32/min

Note that both tiers start at 1. They are not a ladder.

Your vehicle tells the charger its max capable charging speed (115 for SR, 150 for ER) and that determines the price. All Mach-Es will bin to the 1-350 kW tier.

THAT is why I get cranky about the lack of battery preconditioning. If a Mach-E's battery is chilly and only taking 30 kW, you're still paying $0.32/min because the car will say "I can theoretically take 150 so put me in the premium tier."
 

sockmeister

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With Electrify America?

In Pennsylvania your rate will be $0.32/min.

EA's price tiers are:

1-90 kW = $0.16/min
1-350 kW = $0.32/min

Note that both tiers start at 1. They are not a ladder.

Your vehicle tells the charger its max capable charging speed (115 for SR, 150 for ER) and that determines the price. All Mach-Es will bin to the 1-350 kW tier.

THAT is why I get cranky about the lack of battery preconditioning. If a Mach-E's battery is chilly and only taking 30 kW, you're still paying $0.32/min because the car will say "I can theoretically take 150 so put me in the premium tier."
Thanks. I thought it was determined by battery capacity, and wondered briefly how many cars are out there with greater than 90kwh of battery capacity.

So anyway, that changes the math, and it means that as long as you're charging at a rate greater than 44kw/h, then it'll ultimately be cheaper than NJ's per kwh rate.
 

phidauex

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I saw that, and that’s part of why I don’t get charging still? What does a price per kWh even mean? I get “per minute” (I think) - that’s from the time they start sending electricity to your car to the time they stop sending electricity to your car. I’m not sure how a charge per kWh is measured?
A kWh (kilowatt-hour) is a complex unit to understand, but the important thing to know is that it is a quantity, like gallons or miles. A kW (kilowatt) is a unit of speed, like mph, or rpm.

So saying "I drove at 60 miles per hour, and went a total of 10 miles" is analogous to saying "I charged at 60 kW, and added a total of 10 kWhs to my car".

So "quantity" is the simplest way to bill you - you buy gas by the gallon, and electricity by the kWh (which is what your home energy bill is metered in).

The "per minute" thing is confusing to me, that sounds frustrating, since it means if your car charges slower that day you get charged more. I do know some chargers have a per-minute charge for AFTER the charge is done. That is, you are getting charged for holding up the line when your charge is done.

The reason some chargers have price tiers for higher power charging is that higher power charging costs the charger operator more, and has more losses associated with it (also they can get away with it because higher power cars are more expensive, thus they know you have more money to spend).
 

TheSeg

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California is trying to set comercial EVSCs to charge by the kWh, rather than time. It's currently a regulation ruling and not law, but hopefully the momentum speeds the timetable to kWh than raw time.

Looking at Electrify America, the rates are 43¢/kWh (31¢ for Pass+) for all stations located in California. After 10 minutes of idle (no charging happening), they charge a 40¢/min fee.

Personally I'm OK with that grace period + idle fee. It's a good balance of time to get to the car and move, while incentivising folks to not hold the spot.
 

NoPlanetB

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On Sunday morning I created an English transcript of the video and requested Chris' (Car Maniac) permission to publish, which he gave yesterday. In the meantime all key messages from the video have been paraphrased in this thread and I don't want to spam you, but in case anyone would still like read the full transcript - maybe as a way to kill time awaiting delivery - I could still post it. Let me know.
 
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silverelan

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On Sunday morning I created an English transcript of the video and requested Chris' (Car Maniac) permission to publish, which he gave yesterday. In the meantime all key messages from the video have been paraphrased in this thread and I don't want to spam you, but in case anyone would still like read the full transcript - maybe as a way to kill time awaiting delivery - I could still post it. Let me know.
Yeah, that'd be great. Thanks!
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