Mach-E Will Charge 30% Faster Than Earlier Estimates Announces Ford

[silverelan]

Theoretically, yes. You've run the last 3 legs down to 10% battery, which is ideal for squeezing more recharging miles in faster. But finding charging stations at those points along the route might be tough. I suspect most routes won't have stations spaced so well, thus stops with 20% or 30% left will be more necessary. Which could mean adding an additional stop, and taking longer to charge since you can't get down into that sweet spot of the charge curve as often (where it charges fastest).

Plus the more charging stops you add, the more likely they won't all be right on the interstate. Might have to add an extra 10 minutes each way off the interstate to get to that EA station at a suburban Walmart.

And of course you need to make sure there's a charger at your destination (preferably L2 overnight) to get up to 100% for the return trip where you repeat it all again.

I'm not trying to nitpick it per se, but a lot of routes are going to be less than that ideal. I suspect that 1:15 of extra time could easily grow to 2:30 on a less perfect route.

Hmm, your analysis doesn't seem right and I think your suspicions are off base for a few reasons.

Firstly, The MME AWD ER has enough range and charging speed to give drivers options so that they have the flexibility on choosing when/where to stop. Secondly, DCFCs for long distance interstate travel are being placed at easy access locations. Walmarts are what, about a mile off a freeway at most? Furthermore you've got even more chargers right off the freeways sited at gas stations/travel centers near the interstate exit. Lastly, you're going to be stopping and charging in small towns with no traffic or issues to access. I'm highly skeptical of 2.5 hours of stopping time because it doesn't make any sense.

Using Grand Junction, CO to Las Vegas, NV as our 500 mile trip example. Here's what options you'll have with EA and I'm omitting any additional 50kW options available at gas stations en route. I'll give you the distance between each stop for reference as well as where the stop is in relation to the freeway.

Grand Junction
102mi to Green River, UT pop. 972 - Green River Coffee (divert into town, 3mi)
107mi to Salina, UT - Love's Travel Stop (directly off freeway)
18mi to Richfield, UT - Walmart (~1 mi off the freeway)
62mi to Beaver, UT - Day's Inn (directly off freeway)
54mi to Cedar City, UT - Walmart (directly off freeway)
53mi to St. George, UT - Walmart (directly off freeway)
39mi to Mesquite, NV - Walmart (directly off freeway)
Las Vegas

For this 500 mile trip, it looks like with only the coffee stop in Green River as an exception, the opportunities for stopping/charging are very plentiful and nearly all the stations are directly off the freeway. A typical road tripper would stop to refuel at least once, with additional stops for a meal and nature breaks anyways so with charging integrated into every rest stop in the MME, you're actually not really losing that much time.

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[timbop]

Theoretically, yes. You've run the last 3 legs down to 10% battery, which is ideal for squeezing more recharging miles in faster. But finding charging stations at those points along the route might be tough. I suspect most routes won't have stations spaced so well, thus stops with 20% or 30% left will be more necessary. Which could mean adding an additional stop, and taking longer to charge since you can't get down into that sweet spot of the charge curve as often (where it charges fastest)

Actually, ABRP takes the opposite tack: instead of charging up to 80% each time, it has you charge to whatever level would get you to the next stop at 10%. So each stop starts at the highest recharge speed and then stop when you get enough of a charge to make it to the next stop - optimizing time and thus cost

 

[EVer]

Actually, ABRP takes the opposite tack: instead of charging up to 80% each time, it has you charge to whatever level would get you to the next stop at 10%. So each stop starts at the highest recharge speed and then stop when you get enough of a charge to make it to the next stop - optimizing time and thus cost

With added risk of becoming stranded due to unforeseen road conditions (e.g. detours )

 

[silverelan]

With added risk of becoming stranded due to unforeseen road conditions (e.g. detours )

How far are typical interstate freeway detours? I have a hard time envisioning how that works, especially with detours catching drivers by surprise due to Google traffic and Waze integrated into the navigation system.

 

[dbsb3233]

Firstly, The MME AWD ER has enough range and charging speed to give drivers options so that they have the flexibility on choosing when/where to stop.

Yes, but you missed my point about the charging curve. The flexibility you're talking about is having sufficient range to be able to stop to recharge at 10% or 20% or 30% (wherever you can find a charger). But if you stop to recharge from 30% SOC, that's gonna take longer to add 100 miles than it will take if you stop to recharge from 10% SOC (because it charges faster from the bottom end). That's what I meant with that point.

Secondly, DCFCs for long distance interstate travel are being placed at easy access locations. Walmarts are what, about a mile off a freeway at most?

Many are, but not all. That was my point, that some routes allow you do to all your recharges right off the interstate, while others don't. If it's a small town you're passing through, yes, the whole town is usually right off the interstate, including the chargers. But when going through larger towns and cities, they're sometimes more spread out.

For instance, you used Grand Junction as an example, but as the starting point. Now let's use it as a stop along the way from Denver. The EA station is at the Sams Club there. That's 10 minutes off the interstate each way. That's an extra 20 minutes lost relative to if the the station were located right off the interstate.

I'm not saying that's the case everywhere. I'm just saying that on a long road trip, chances are one or two of the charging stops may not be right next to the interstate. And that consumes extra time.

There's also some other factors I didn't bring up, like the risk of no chargers being open. That could add 10, 20, 30 minutes if you have to wait for a charger to come open. It's rare now because there's so few BEVs on the road, but that'll be increasing significantly in the coming years.

Maybe stretching that 1.25 hours to 2.5 would be uncommon, but I betcha there's usually gonna be more lost time than what the ideal scenario calculates to.

(And just as an aside... we do that Grand Junction to Las Vegas drive in our Escape with just a single 5-minute gas stop in Richfield. Which is why we'll surely just keep using it for that long of a drive.)

 

[timbop]

Yes, but you missed my point about the charging curve. The flexibility you're talking about is having sufficient range to be able to stop to recharge at 10% or 20% or 30% (wherever you can find a charger). But if you stop to recharge from 30% SOC

And you missed my point about not charging to 80% each time :

Actually, ABRP takes the opposite tack: instead of charging up to 80% each time, it has you charge to whatever level would get you to the next stop at 10%. So each stop starts at the highest recharge speed and then stop when you get enough of a charge to make it to the next stop - optimizing time and thus cost

For example an excerpt from a NJ->SC->NJ trip (you can actually set the thresholds for min% at arrival to destination and chargers if 10% isn't goode enough)

 

[dbsb3233]

How far are typical interstate freeway detours? I have a hard time envisioning how that works, especially with detours catching drivers by surprise due to Google traffic and Waze integrated into the navigation system.

I'd be less concerned about road detours than I would dependability of the L3 charger when getting there (busy/broken). And the impact of weather and climate control on battery drain.

Trying to time each charge to get there with 10% left (when there's so few L3 chargers and backup options) seems like it's cutting a little too close for comfort. But OTOH, the more safety reserve you leave in the battery, the slower it's gonna charge to add that next 100 miles. Probably requiring more recharge stops. Just have to weigh lost time vs higher anxiety.

One thing seems sure though... BEV road trips involve quite a bit more time and more stops than ICE/PHEV. Some people are fine with that, others not so much. It's just one of the factors potential buyers need to think about.

 

[dbsb3233]

And you missed my point about not charging to 80% each time :

No I didn't. I just hadn't replied directly to you about it.

But I did allude to it in my last reply to silverelan, when I said trying to time each stop with just 10% SOC left seems to be cutting it a little close for comfort when there's so few L3 chargers and backups. But that's just something each person needs to weigh the anxiety vs lost time for. Some may choose to try to time it for 20% safety instead, but that'll mean slower charges and potentially more of them.

I get your point though about my specific reply way above about chargers not spaced to where you can stop at 10%. That really only applied to the first recharge stop (since you're presumably charging 100% at home overnight to start the trip). For the 2nd recharge on, you're charging just enough to limp to the next charger at 10%.

 

[timbop]

I'd be less concerned about road detours than I would dependability of the L3 charger when getting there (busy/broken). And the impact of weather and climate control on battery drain.

Trying to time each charge to get there with 10% left (when there's so few L3 chargers and backup options) seems like it's cutting a little too close for comfort. But OTOH, the more safety reserve you leave in the battery, the slower it's gonna charge to add that next 100 miles. Probably requiring more recharge stops. Just have to weigh lost time vs higher anxiety.

One thing seems sure though... BEV road trips involve quite a bit more time and more stops than ICE/PHEV. Some people are fine with that, others not so much. It's just one of the factors potential buyers need to think about.

Oh, absolutely they require more planning. But, you can also work those stops into your food/bio breaks. Using my favorite app ABRP, here's an excerpt of a trip I gamed out from NJ to Atlanta with a model 3 SR+, working food and lodging into it. It also takes tweaking the stops, but overall it's not bad. In this plan is breakfast before leaving home with 100% charge, lunch in springfield, dinner in burlington, a hotel stay in greenville (with breakfast while charging), and lunch in buford. At least one of the stops in chester, henderson, or charlotte would be a bio break no matter what car I was driving.

 

[dbsb3233]

Using my favorite app ABRP, here's an excerpt of a trip I gamed out from NJ to Atlanta with a model 3 SR+, working food and lodging into it. It also takes tweaking the stops, but overall it's not bad.

Yep, just depends on the type of road trips one likes -- "slow and leisurely" or "just get there". Some people prefer one, some the other.

We're the latter when we do a Denver-Vegas trek once or twice a year, unless we decide to make it a dual-destination trip to see one of the Utah National Parks along the way. But usually it's just a straight shot that we can do in one day (785 miles) in daylight hours (like 8am-8pm MT). It's only 2 refuel stops, one of which being a fast food lunch. Adding a few extra hours for refueling would push that into a 2-day drive which we prefer to avoid.

But I know that's a more dedicated drive than many would want to do. Much of it is also at 80 MPH which tends to really eat into BEV mileage.

 

[EVer]

I'd be less concerned about road detours than I would dependability of the L3 charger when getting there (busy/broken). And the impact of weather and climate control on battery drain.

Trying to time each charge to get there with 10% left (when there's so few L3 chargers and backup options) seems like it's cutting a little too close for comfort. But OTOH, the more safety reserve you leave in the battery, the slower it's gonna charge to add that next 100 miles. Probably requiring more recharge stops. Just have to weigh lost time vs higher anxiety.

One thing seems sure though... BEV road trips involve quite a bit more time and more stops than ICE/PHEV. Some people are fine with that, others not so much. It's just one of the factors potential buyers need to think about.

As charging stations become more densely packed, the closer to the wire drivers will be able to cut it.

 

[dbsb3233]

As charging stations become more densely packed, the closer to the wire drivers will be able to cut it.

True. If and when there's more along road trip routes, that should improve coverage. It'll be curious to see how much that happens. It's a different deal than gas stations because the revenue stream likely isn't nearly as strong to support it. Because refueling takes so much longer, one charging station can only handle two 30-minute paying customers per hour, while a gas pump can handle 20-30 paying customers per hour (when busy). The costs are surely lower for a charging station as well, but probably not by that much of a factor. If charging stations don't generate a lot of revenue, that would slow their adoption.

Be curious to explore the business case for chargers, and how profitable (if at all) they are.

 

[Billyk24]

One thing seems sure though... BEV road trips involve quite a bit more time and more stops than ICE/PHEV. Some people are fine with that, others not so much. It's just one of the factors potential buyers need to think about. ------

In this thread, there is no mention of waiting for an open charging spot.

 

[dbsb3233]

In this thread, there is no mention of waiting for an open charging spot.

I slipped it in a paragraph in post #125 above. But it's worth reiterating.

Maybe as BEVs on the road double (then triple, 5x, 10x...) in the coming years, L3 charging stations along highways will go up accordingly. Or maybe they'll lag. Hard to say. But I could see a point where some of these stations along many interstates start filling up and you're stuck sitting there in line waiting 20 minutes for a spot to open up. Especially on weekends and in the summer vacation season.

Kinda like a car wash, where there's 4 bays. At peak times, cars can line up 3-4 deep, while each car takes 5-10 minutes to wash. We all know how frustrating that is. Not a big deal at a gas station that takes 2 minutes per car. But big deal on a 20-30 minute refuel.

 

[silverelan]

Not a big deal at a gas station that takes 2 minutes per car.

You've used this "2 minutes" number a few times. It's not clear to me that is a realistic number to fill up a gas tank from 1/8 or less.

I put 15 gallons into my Outback's tank earlier this week from my local Shell Station and timed it from the second I unlocked the door to exit the vehicle to when I sat back down and closed the door. 4 minutes 30 seconds flat.

That time includes authorizing my credit card on the card reader, setting the nozzle for maximum flow rate and emptying out the trash in my car while pumping. I do 1-2 extra clicks of the pump handle before putting it back and collecting my receipt.

Add in activities like squeegee the windshield on a road trip plus a nature break inside the station and 2 minutes just sounds absurd.

I checked online resources and cannot easily find how long people usually take at a filling station. DOT says max flow rate from a dispenser is limited to 10gal/min but most consumer pumps are half that rate.

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