Mike Levine on ADM

[The_Boots]

It's tough to prove, but a verbal contract is still a contract. They're not allowed to lie about it.
Of course, it's also hard to prove. If you ask him for help and you don't have a physical record, then it's a lot harder to effectively apply pressure.

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[nvabill]

Mike Levine might, but Ford won't. Sorry for those getting sick of my story - I feel like it's all I am posting thee days, because it I am so irritated over it - but here it is: I confirmed with the dealer via email that no markup is added on ordered vehicles, placed the order, went into the dealership to show them ID, and then two months later the website indicated a change in the "difference from MSRP." Dealer would not commit to saying whether they were going to sell at MSRP or not; even after getting the original email forwarded back to them, they'd only say that if they had promised me pricing previously, they would honor it. I had to go there in person to hear it from them directly, finally, that they're going to sell to me at MSRP because of that email. They refused to create a price or purchase agreement, stating that they cannot do it without a VIN (which is likely an untruth, as plenty of others on this forum had that document in hand on the day their order was placed). I am in a one-party-consent state to recording, so to try and guard myself against nonsense, I have the exchange recorded. Hopefully will never need to use it.

Here's the part of interest: I called Ford twice during this process. The help line is great - there was no wait, and both representatives sounded like real people who really cared about my situation. One even shared my outrage. Unfortunately, the answer was the same both times: it's between me and the dealer, and there's nothing Ford can do. Even if I wanted to transfer my order to another dealer, my current dealer would have to have a hand in it. So as I said above, Mike Levine might be willing to intervene (I tweeted him once but did not get a reply), but Ford as a whole won't.


It's a simple concept but I was misled by Ford's new process, and I think many others here were too.

Look at the terminology Ford uses on its website: ORDER is consistently used in the wording. Even in your account, it's "RESERVATIONS & ORDERS." I think all of us here have used Amazon or made some other purchase online before. We all know what it means when you see a price and there's a button that says "order" and "complete order" or "submit order" (I can't remember what wording Ford used for that step). Sure, we know there'll be dealer fees and taxes, but I was under the impression that the dealer essentially becomes the cash register and paperwork processor in this process. I know Ford is copying Tesla hard in some areas, and it seemed like maybe they were 90% of the way there with their sales process, too.

What it seems to boil down to, the website is just a way for us to submit a configuration for a reservation to the dealer, who then places the order with Ford. In that regard, it's the same as it always has been, only now we might be able to initiate the process without having to talk to the dealer first, and in some cases, without needing to set foot in the dealership. And if the pricing on the website can change even after an order has been submitted, then what's the point of having it listed at all? It implies something that it isn't.

And then, of course, is the fact that my dealer won't create a purchase agreement with me until we have a VIN. I assume my dealer isn't the only one who refuses to commit to a price earlier on. And why would they? Make someone wait months and catch them when they're at peak excitement, and they'll probably be more willing to agree to some unexpected price increases compared with someone who hasn't waited long at all and still has time to maneuver to another dealer, or another vehicle.

Apologies for my cynicism about dealer greed in this process - there may be good reasons for a lot of what we're seeing, and I'm just not aware of them. The deeper I go in trying to understand this process, the more I realize that it's probably unfair to pin the blame entirely on the dealers; Ford seems to own a lot of this, too. I am envious of the people who have gone through this process smoothly and had a good experience. I am also grateful that my experience is not the worst I've read about on these forums...

I didn't have any problem with the ordering process and contacted my dealer to get a signed purchase agreement. All the information is there on the Ford sight if people would just take a little time to read what is presented and make a decision. Sorry you have had such a problem with the dealer but in the future if a dealer will not give you a signed purchase agreement find another dealer.

From the Ford ordering sight, " You may be able to configure a Ford Mustang Mach-E vehicle (the “Vehicle”) through the Reservation Process (“Reservation”). By completing the Reservation Process, you are not ordering or purchasing a vehicle. The Reservation Process allows you to configure a Vehicle and pay the Reservation Deposit (“Reservation Deposit”) to Ford. Participation in the Program does not guarantee you vehicle delivery. You must contact a Dealer to discuss final transaction pricing, arrange any necessary financing, and complete your purchase of the Vehicle. Your Reservation does not guarantee a set price for the Vehicle. The Dealer sets the Vehicle price, which may differ from the MSRP. "

Again, I am amazed at how many people can not take a little time and do some research and planning before purchasing a $50,000 to $70,000 vehicle! But hey that's me and my opinion but it works for me.

 

[scoopman]

In my experience I had a dealer who agreed via email on X-Plan no ADM and accepting Ford Options, but after reading others bad experiences with my dealer, I contacted another one in my area where I read of good experiences.

After getting the same deal in writing and of course that my deposit was refundable, I placed a second GTPE order that was about 6 weeks behind the first.

It was liberating and offered me some optionality to be able to know that I probably wouldn't have two dealers being able to get away with a bait and switch on the price of the car after having the deal terms in writing for both. It's sad to have to recommend this but you cannot trust dealers in this supply-constrained market and there's no reason to not do this so long as you have in writing that the deposits are refundable.

In the end with me, my email agreement with the first dealer was key in getting our favorite Ford executives to keep the first dealer in line when they tried to backpedal and not accept my X-Plan. Ford does hold their dealers to what they agree to in writing with their customers if you are able to get the execs attention.

Still trying to figure out if there is any good I can do for myself or anyone else with the second GTPE which has almost arrived at the second dealer...

 

[Chicago-E]

Listen I get it the dealerships operate at individual levels. This still is a bad move overall for Ford. Tesla's model isn't perfect, but it's more customer focused

Adding trash FSD for 10k to all their used car prices is very customer focused. Also marking up their cars massively of over the last year is also very customer focused. The Model Y long range all have a 9k ADM from early 2021. Model S 15k etc.

I love Tesla and plan to own a Model S one day but its a stretch to say they are customer focused IMO.

 

[Maquis]

I think Ford could be doing a lot more to help customers. When we place MME orders online, we should be able to filter dealers based on already agreed-upon terms like accepting X-Plan pricing, no mark-up, etc. Ford can do the back-end work with dealers to “certify” to these terms, and then let customers make informed purchasing decisions.
Edit: also, equipped/trained to handle Ford Options, etc

I believe Ford are doing all they can to do exactly this, but the entrenched dealer franchise agreements make it difficult for them.
I doubt they’d be allowed to enable website features that would pit dealers against one another.
I am purely speculating, of course.

 

[ARK]

Adding trash FSD for 10k to all their used car prices is very customer focused. Also marking up their cars massively of over the last year is also very customer focused. The Model Y long range all have a 9k ADM from early 2021. Model S 15k etc.

I love Tesla and plan to own a Model S one day but its a stretch to say they are customer focused IMO.

I think what he meant was they are better at parting you with your money while putting a smile on your face.

 

[krafty81]

Bottom line - find a good dealer that puts things in writing and go for it! If the dealer is doing shady things like not putting the agreement in writing (including X-plan and no ADM or other fees)., find another. It was really easy in my case. If you back out on the order, which you can after test drive, they will refund your 500 dollars and call it a day. I do not have an issue with the dealer then adding ADM and selling it to someone else.

 

[deadduck]

that's a reasonable and common sense approach by the dealer.

And they'll probably make more on service than selling the car.

 

[deadduck]

Unless you're an attorney and can make that claim with professional expertise, I'm not sure you're correct (No offense meant, we just interpret wording differently).

When you place an online order the dealership has to agree to the order before it's processed. Per Ford, directly from their website:
"The dealer selling price is the price the Dealer is willing to sell the vehicle for in a purchase transaction and corresponds to the estimated dealer selling price for the vehicle displayed in the Pricing Summary at the time of your Online Order..."

From my experience and many others Ford will intervene if the price changes from that of the online order due to ADM after the fact. As for anything however, YMMV

By all means if you want to get it in writing from the dealership then do... All the better.

I think I can without being a lawyer. He uses a specific phrase, "purchase agreement". In fact he goes further by adding the word "signed". Me, I have 2 things, "order sent" and "order accepted by dealer". Neither of those are a purchase agreement. It's possible Mike Levine, head of a bililon dollar company, doesn't understand the difference between the two, but I bet he does. It's also possible that he would intervene in my case if it were needed, but he didn't write it that way.

I'm gambling on the dealer, who has been well reviewed here, and has a good local reputation, so we'll see. I also won't be that mad if it doesn't go through.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Having to go into a dealer to sign a purchase agreement to guarantee a price does not jive with an online order and purchase process that's been promised. I should only need to go in and sign one time the day of delivery.

 

[Bblattz]

It's tough to prove, but a verbal contract is still a contract. They're not allowed to lie about it.
Of course, it's also hard to prove. If you ask him for help and you don't have a physical record, then it's a lot harder to effectively apply pressure.

I never signed the dealer spec order sheet on my order but the owner of the franchise swore to me in person with a handshake that he would not apply any ADM (at the time and maybe still today they didnt do on inventory vehicles either). He was a genuine and nice old man and call me old school but a person's word matters to me. Maybe I will be proven wrong...but if so, then I will walk away. I would never trust them in that case for honest service or future purchases.

But I understand there are bad dealers...When I was in college I worked in sales for a local Lincoln dealer...oh man the shenanigans and personalities. My personal favorite was "let me talk to my manager" and they would go into the managers office to look at playboy magazines. I am literally not kidding. Dealer lobbies are pretty powerful so unfortunately the bad ones will be around a bit longer. Im sure Ford has some ranking system and the bad ones are penalized over time.

 

[DevSecOps]

I think I can without being a lawyer. He uses a specific phrase, "purchase agreement". In fact he goes further by adding the word "signed". Me, I have 2 things, "order sent" and "order accepted by dealer". Neither of those are a purchase agreement. It's possible Mike Levine, head of a bililon dollar company, doesn't understand the difference between the two, but I bet he does. It's also possible that he would intervene in my case if it were needed, but he didn't write it that way.

I'm gambling on the dealer, who has been well reviewed here, and has a good local reputation, so we'll see. I also won't be that mad if it doesn't go through.

I understand what he said and I'm not arguing against getting a signature if you want one, but it's an archaic mentality regardless of his status as a Director to claim signatures are required. For what it's worth I've been in higher positions as him with a company much larger.

My understanding of the law is that offers, orders or reservations are not contractually binding, even with a signature, unless there's acceptance and consideration. This is why, I would assume he says, "try to help". Ultimately, the "purchase agreement" is what you agree to at the time of purchase, anything before that isn't going to be legally binding without acceptance and consideration. Consideration is when you leave a deposit. Therefore, I would assume that a court would find that both parties have accepted that offer, consideration was provided in the form of a deposit which in turn makes it binding. So placing an online order with a deposit is an acceptance of an "offer" by both parties and consideration by the buyer.

Now... if you go to a dealer when the car comes in and you revise that agreement by adding extras etc, then you might revoke the original agreement. Tesla has been said to do this where someone modifies, let's say the color, after a price increase and the revision then kicks in the price increase. Likewise, if no deposit is made, there's no consideration by the buyer and it might not be binding.

I respectfully think that Mr. Levine's choice of words by using "purchase agreement" is incorrect, since that can only be done at the time of sale.

So my advice, leave a deposit, and print the order page and payment confirmation. If you have all of these it would be easy to say you and the dealer had a binding agreement with acceptable and consideration, regardless of signatures.

I am not an attorney and provide no warranty to my statements, however when we deployed our cloud infrastructure publicly in 2016 we had similar discussions as we moved away from signed physical contracts to digital contracts without signatures. The main difference was the payment. The physical contracts were Net30 whereas the cloud digital without signatures were instant payment.

 

[orangejade]

I understand what he said and I'm not arguing against getting a signature if you want one, but it's an archaic mentality regardless of his status as a C suite exec to claim signatures are required. For what it's worth I've been in similar positions as him with a company much larger.

My understanding of the law is that offers, orders or reservations are not contractually binding, even with a signature, unless there's acceptance and consideration. This is why, I would assume he says, "try to help". Ultimately, the "purchase agreement" is what you agree to at the time of purchase, anything before that isn't going to be legally binding without acceptance and consideration. Consideration is when you leave a deposit. Therefore, I would assume that a court would find that both parties have accepted that offer, consideration was provided in the form of a deposit which in turn makes it binding. So placing an online order with a deposit is an acceptance of an "offer" by both parties and consideration by the buyer.

Now... if you go to a dealer when the car comes in and you revise that agreement by adding extras etc, then you might revoke the original agreement. Tesla has been said to do this where someone modifies, let's say the color, after a price increase and the revision then kicks in the price increase. Likewise, if no deposit is made, there's no consideration by the buyer and it might not be binding.

I respectfully think that Mr. Levine's choice of words by using "purchase agreement" is incorrect, since that can only be done at the time of sale.

So my advice, leave a deposit, and print the order page and payment confirmation. If you have all of these it would be easy to say you and the dealer had a binding agreement with acceptable and consideration, regardless of signatures.

I am not an attorney and provide no warranty to my statements, however when we deployed our cloud infrastructure publicly in 2016 we had similar discussions as we moved away from signed physical contracts to digital contracts without signatures. The main difference was the payment. The physical contracts were Net30 whereas the cloud digital without signatures were instant payment.

I 100% agree with this analysis. I have a MME GT on order, and if the dealer tries to pull anything, going straight to court. From my business law class, the only contract that needs to be in writing and signed is Real Estate. Like you said, there was an offer, the dealer accepted --it literally says "Accepted by Dealer" on the Ford order website, and there was consideration--i.e. deposit. All the elements of a contract seem present to me.

 

[jimitoast]

Maybe it's just me but, at some point, the level of effort required to prevent and/or react to the variety of dealer shenanigans amounts to an excessive level of effort to do business with Ford. If we can't really do business directly with Ford then the dealer is embedded in the process. I don't care if Ford owns or controls the dealers. It's all part of my experience. If it sucks, I won't do business with Ford, period. If Ford can't get past this, they may be screwed. This is 2022, for F's sake. If my dealer tries to screw me, I am out. Principles matter.

 

[DevSecOps]

Maybe it's just me but, at some point, the level of effort required to prevent and/or react to the variety of dealer shenanigans amounts to an excessive level of effort to do business with Ford. If we can't really do business directly with Ford then the dealer is embedded in the process. I don't care if Ford owns or controls the dealers. It's all part of my experience. If it sucks, I won't do business with Ford, period. If Ford can't get past this, they may be screwed. This is 2022, for F's sake. If my dealer tries to screw me, I am out. Principles matter.

So the number of shenanigans that I've actually seen from valid reservations is maybe 1.... There's normally other issues going on behind the scene.

As for the dealer model, it's not Ford who's completely at fault. Legally, Tesla and other "online only" mfgs can't sell in various states due to franchise laws. Second, the companies that Ford is being compared to have 1-4 total models, all EV.

We all want it to be better, but people often forget that it's far more complicated and many factors are at play.

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