Advertisement



EVer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
453
Reaction score
447
Location
San Diego, CA
Vehicles
Ford F-150 SuperCrew Cab, Tesla Model 3P
Country flag
Not at all strange. A simplistic range based on no destination information that says you have 300 miles of charge is somewhat meaningless. Such a guessometer is all we in the Leaf world have. It's based on your recent driving. The car doesn't know where you are going when you first turn it on.

If the Mach E navigation system works like they say it will, then once you enter a destination and a route is calculated, then it can estimate the real-world range based on the roadway. If you then drive on a 65 mph but drive 75, it will adjust again.

A 300 mile EPA range will be significantly less at 75 mph.
+1

Range without route is meaningless. Tesla buries the route-based range, although it is used in the navigation tool. I wish they brought it to the forefront and didn’t portray it as a remaining charge graph in a secondary screen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DBC

kdryden99

Well-Known Member
First Name
Richard
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Messages
843
Reaction score
751
Location
Montreal Canada
First Name
Richard
Vehicles
Nissan Sentra Spec-V, Nissan Rogue, Future Infinite Blue Mach E
Country flag
+1

Range without route is meaningless. Tesla buries the route-based range, although it is used in the navigation tool. I wish they brought it to the forefront and didn’t portray it as a remaining charge graph in a secondary screen.
It's because I think they don't to give the impression that you won't necessarily get the range they advertise, which we all know you don't because it depends on many factors. So for the ppl who have range anxiety they just rather bury that fact.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DBC

EVer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
453
Reaction score
447
Location
San Diego, CA
Vehicles
Ford F-150 SuperCrew Cab, Tesla Model 3P
Country flag
It's because I think they don't to give the impression that you won't necessarily get the range they advertise, which we all know you don't because it depends on many factors. So for the ppl who have range anxiety they just rather bury that fact.
Maybe, but it’s the best planning tool they offer.
 

Nak

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mike
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Messages
432
Reaction score
490
Location
Camas, Washington
First Name
Mike
Vehicles
Tesla Model Y Performance, Tesla Model 3, 1992 K1500 Blazer
Country flag
Range without route is meaningless. Tesla buries the route-based range, although it is used in the navigation tool. I wish they brought it to the forefront and didn’t portray it as a remaining charge graph in a secondary screen.
? Just leave the turn guidance up on the Nav display and it shows what you'll get to your destination with--very accurately. Not buried at all if you don't want it to be.

It's because I think they don't to give the impression that you won't necessarily get the range they advertise, which we all know you don't because it depends on many factors. So for the ppl who have range anxiety they just rather bury that fact.
I seriously doubt that. The range displayed in the upper left part of the screen is merely the best remaining range you might expect given optimum conditions and driving at 55. It doesn't say that anywhere, but that certainly is what shows. It's pretty simple, just apply a penalty if you plan on driving 70 or it's raining. The gauge shows what it should show, with no fudge factor. If someone isn't smart enough to figure out that driving fast or negative environmental conditions will reduce range, they really shouldn't be driving any car, ICE or EV.

The gauge shows what it should show. If you want a better estimate, merely set your destination with Nav. I drove to Timberline Lodge--quite a climb up Mt. Hood--from Camas WA the other day. The Nav display said I'd get there with 55%. I drove five over the speed limit on wet roads and snow covered roads and got there with 55%. Nav said I'd get home with 35%. I got home with 36%. Good enough I think. I hope the Mach-e does something similar.
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
5,074
Reaction score
5,160
Location
Colorado, USA
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2013 Escape Titanium, 2021 Mustang Mach-E FE (Red)
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Not at all strange. A simplistic range based on no destination information that says you have 300 miles of charge is somewhat meaningless.
I think it's more a too-literal interpretation of what you'd initially said. When you said "starting out a full charge showing a 300 mile range and then showing ~270 mile range after driving 1.5 hours on interstates, mostly at 70+ mph", that sounds like 100+ miles driven, but only 30 miles taken off the range meter (300 down to 270 after 100+ miles driven). We understand about the type of driving making the range calc go up or down maybe 10% or 20%, but not over 200%.

I'm assuming you didn't really mean he'd driven 100+ miles and it still showed 270 left?
 

Nak

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mike
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Messages
432
Reaction score
490
Location
Camas, Washington
First Name
Mike
Vehicles
Tesla Model Y Performance, Tesla Model 3, 1992 K1500 Blazer
Country flag
Not at all strange. A simplistic range based on no destination information that says you have 300 miles of charge is somewhat meaningless. Such a guessometer is all we in the Leaf world have. It's based on your recent driving. The car doesn't know where you are going when you first turn it on.

If the Mach E navigation system works like they say it will, then once you enter a destination and a route is calculated, then it can estimate the real-world range based on the roadway. If you then drive on a 65 mph but drive 75, it will adjust again.

A 300 mile EPA range will be significantly less at 75 mph.
Very strange if true. You're saying that the gauge always shows what you could get if you had a full charge based on recent driving. That is meaningless and I'm hoping mistaken. A gauge showing remaining range based on long term historical data isn't meaningless, it merely shows what range you could achieve given optimum conditions. You apply your own penalty.

I think what you're getting at--correct me if I'm mistaken--is that the Mach-e range estimate is based off some level of recent driving data as opposed to the Tesla gauge reading which is based on much longer term historical data. IMHO, neither is wrong as long as you're aware of what the data is based off of. I personally prefer Tesla's implementation. If I want to know how far I can really go--without entering a destination--I prefer to simply apply a penalty given my knowledge of how I plan to drive and environmental conditions. If the cars gauge range--not nav range--is based off recent driving now I have another variable to plan for. To estimate range I now have to consider how I have been driving recently AND how I plan to drive for the rest of the trip. If the gauge estimate is based of long term data, I only have to consider how I plan to drive for the rest of the trip. It's a much simpler calculation, but in the end it's purely preference. A superior solution would be able to choose for yourself in the settings what gauge range is based on. Hopefully the Mach-e will do just that.

I assume your comment about the Mach-e Nav system range is correct; that's exactly what Tesla does too. See my above post for an example of that.
 

Kamuelaflyer

Well-Known Member
First Name
Bill
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Messages
1,667
Reaction score
3,034
Location
Hawaii
First Name
Bill
Vehicles
Old
Country flag
I think it's more a too-literal interpretation of what you'd initially said. When you said "starting out a full charge showing a 300 mile range and then showing ~270 mile range after driving 1.5 hours on interstates, mostly at 70+ mph", that sounds like 100+ miles driven, but only 30 miles taken off the range meter (300 down to 270 after 100+ miles driven). We understand about the type of driving making the range calc go up or down maybe 10% or 20%, but not over 200%.

I'm assuming you didn't really mean he'd driven 100+ miles and it still showed 270 left?
The range-o-meter is misleading without programming the navigation system and probably without significant data points from past driving techniques. There’s also the possibility that the vehicle is actually a bit more efficient at higher speeds than we might think. Not 100=30* more efficient, but more efficient at high speeds than we’ve thought to this point.

Honestly in all of this we ought to be considering that the car was engineered to an reach an obtainable set of criteria before it even became the Mach-e. If things had not panned out at target mileage as it evolved, I think we’d have far more real data (not just tour static displays) indicating a lower target range and probably official word from Ford as well.

It would not surprise me if at some point we get some test results with high speed range figures designed to give a better idea of real world use.

Just my 2¢ worth. I’ve been known to be wrong.


* The Paper Towel and Toilet Tissue Industry preferred method of explaining less is more.
 

DBC

Well-Known Member
First Name
Don
Joined
Oct 1, 2020
Messages
639
Reaction score
659
Location
San Diego
First Name
Don
Vehicles
Volt ELR
Country flag
Many times, emissions certifications cover a family of vehicles with the same powertrain. For example, the Chevy Blazer with a 3.6L engine and 9 sp trans FWD is covered by a longer wheelbase, heavier, Chevy Traverse 3.6L 9 sp AWD. So worst case for emissions, but the Blazer has its own fuel economy data in the EPA test car list data, CAFE rating, and fueleconomy.gov - label ratings for the actual vehicle model.
Ford has said this is the test for the emissions certificate. Given your example, the test could be for the GT, correct?
 

Marcel

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2020
Messages
199
Reaction score
236
Location
The Netherlands
Vehicles
e-Golf
Very strange if true. You're saying that the gauge always shows what you could get if you had a full charge based on recent driving. That is meaningless and I'm hoping mistaken. A gauge showing remaining range based on long term historical data isn't meaningless, it merely shows what range you could achieve given optimum conditions. You apply your own penalty.

I think what you're getting at--correct me if I'm mistaken--is that the Mach-e range estimate is based off some level of recent driving data as opposed to the Tesla gauge reading which is based on much longer term historical data. IMHO, neither is wrong as long as you're aware of what the data is based off of. I personally prefer Tesla's implementation. If I want to know how far I can really go--without entering a destination--I prefer to simply apply a penalty given my knowledge of how I plan to drive and environmental conditions. If the cars gauge range--not nav range--is based off recent driving now I have another variable to plan for. To estimate range I now have to consider how I have been driving recently AND how I plan to drive for the rest of the trip. If the gauge estimate is based of long term data, I only have to consider how I plan to drive for the rest of the trip. It's a much simpler calculation, but in the end it's purely preference. A superior solution would be able to choose for yourself in the settings what gauge range is based on. Hopefully the Mach-e will do just that.

I assume your comment about the Mach-e Nav system range is correct; that's exactly what Tesla does too. See my above post for an example of that.
I think you are misunderstanding how you use the -guess-o-meter- in relation to the range discussion. Say you have driven 100 miles (highway) and still have 170 miles on the gom and someones ask you how much is the range of your MME, you answer about 270 miles under these driving conditions....but when mostly doing city driving it would be more like 350+
 

Shayne

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2020
Messages
564
Reaction score
599
Location
Northern Ontario Canada
Vehicles
2021 Mustang Mach E Prem ER
Occupation
Engineer
Country flag
My apologies on misusing the word "leaked". My point was simply this: you took a document found in the EPA's files and calculated what that might mean for range. It was not an official Ford value.

As I said, I'm glad you found it. We've been working off a lack of information, so scrounging this up gave us more than we had. It prompted a response from Ford. While I don't dispute your calculations from the filed certificate, I trust Ford when they say they will meet their target.

I really wish Ford would just get around to releasing the news!
So the articles that rumored higher than estimated EPA numbers are coming ( One link ) were not correct and now they will at least met their estimates? Guess with all that is going on we should hold tight and wait.

I agree if it was a feeler they should have got their feedback and could release something. I wonder since they appear now to rumor real world range (under idea conditions/speed we assume?) is greater than EPA testing if the 2 cycle testing is not 100% suitable for BEV's. Range reviews become even more anticipated.

Maybe buying an electron guzzler, what else is new.
 

timbop

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
Messages
2,757
Reaction score
5,150
Location
New Jersey
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2015 Mustang Convertible (to be replaced by MME RT 1), 2016 Dodge Durango
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
Another article
autoevolution: EPA Document Reveals Disappointing Range for the 2021 Ford Mustang Mach-E.
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-for-the-2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-151469.html
That article is simply reiterating what was stated in the OP, and neither confirms nor refutes whether more filings from Ford are pending. Tesla is renowned for making software tweaks and updating their EPA paperwork to get increased range; is it not possible Ford will do the same? Or do we just give Tesla a pass on how they got more range but not Ford?
 

kdryden99

Well-Known Member
First Name
Richard
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Messages
843
Reaction score
751
Location
Montreal Canada
First Name
Richard
Vehicles
Nissan Sentra Spec-V, Nissan Rogue, Future Infinite Blue Mach E
Country flag
That article is simply reiterating what was stated in the OP, and neither confirms nor refutes whether more filings from Ford are pending. Tesla is renowned for making software tweaks and updating their EPA paperwork to get increased range; is it not possible Ford will do the same? Or do we just give Tesla a pass on how they got more range but not Ford?
yep Ford is in damage control mode now
 



 









Advertisement


Top